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John Nolan (Manchip/Swain/Hopkins)

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  • John Nolan (Manchip/Swain/Hopkins)

    Some of you may remember my grandfathers story from 10+ years ago. But if not, here is the epic tale...
    "The family story about my grandfather is a little vague, as he once said that he didn't want to talk about his early life.
    He maintained that his mother was an Irish singer who had a fling with an army officer and was so keen to keep the name NOLAN that he named all his three children with it.
    JOHN NOLAN was born in Manchester on 14th October 1906, and his birth was never registered (verified from statutory declaration), then he was left with Rachel Shore / nee Howarth / nee Holt at 8 Albert Royd Street as a baby, Rochdale. He was raised by Rachel until her death.
    Surprisingly, in the 1911 census, John NOLAN, wasn't called Nolan at all, he was listed as John HOPKINS, adopted, born in Manchester - another mystery which is yet to be answered.
    When Rachel died, John went to live with her son, Samuel, and daughter in law, Gertie, for a short time and they moved out of 8 Albert Royd Street, round the corner to Dover Street. At some stage between Rachel's death and 1918, John Nolan went to live with Rachel's daughter, Sarah Ellen and her husband Arthur Swain at Roch Street. This was the address given on the statuary declaration paper we have, signed by Arthur Swain in 1918.
    At around the age of 12 (approx 1918) his birth mother came to collect him and took him back to Manchester so he could work and bring money in for her. She had another male child at this stage, so John had a half brother.
    John had other ideas and returned to Rochdale to the family who had brought him up, and at this time we know that he was 'adopted' by Sarah Ellen and Arthur Henry Swain.
    We assume that his mother, must have known the adoptive family, as she knew where John was living after 12 years, and are convinced there must have been a family link to the Howarths.. why else would John Nolan be taken in, then passed from Rachel, to Samuel and finally to Sarah Ellen.
    My quest is to find my grandfather's true roots and his connection to Rachel, and to see how true the story about the singer and army officer really was?
    c. 2004 - I did find (through the great people on this forum) descendent of Rachel in Rochdale and they remember my grandfather so we know that the 1911 census when he is listed as John HOPKINS, it was him!
    c. 2006 - After finding some descendants of Rachel, we did a Y chromosome DNA test on a male Howarth descendent and one for my Uncle. On my uncles results, I have found a match with the Manchip family, coming from Somerset with a descendent from James O Manchip b.1846 Bridgwater, Somerset d.1915 Edinburgh and Alice Spencely b.1841 Bloomsbury, London d.c.1915. Am trying to find a Manchip that was in the army around Jan/Feb 06 either in Ireland or Manchester area.
    c.2019 - I recently did my own DNA sample with Ancestry and found two 3rd cousins (or more likely, 2nd Cousin 1x removed) both through their NOLAN line. Both have a common ancestor, John Nolan b. 23 July 1875 Hong Kong, China d. 12 Jan 1935 Manhattan, NY, USA. They also both have his father as Thomas Nolan b. 1833 Ireland (although i cannot see any verification for the father), with two wives, the first Sarah Armstrong, mother to the younger Thomas, then a second Sarah, who is mother to Michael and Elizabeth (who I think may be my gt. grandmother).
    Young John was in the armed forces (from the age of 14) and his number was 3485 in the Connaught Rangers, joining in Galway in 1889.
    So after 30 years of searching for my lost Gt. Grandfather and Gt. Grandmother, I am now pretty sure the 'story' was true. I now have Manchip as John's father and Nolan as his mother. I now just have to zoom in and get the right ones!"
    I am really looking for help to verify the link to father, his second wife and my gt. grandmother.
    Last edited by castanea1985; 06-09-19, 10:13.

  • #2
    I have bumped up the original thread for this fascinating search!

    OC

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
      I have bumped up the original thread for this fascinating search!

      OC
      Here is a link to the thread to keep them together:

      Caroline
      Caroline's Family History Pages
      Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

      Comment


      • #4
        "Young John was in the armed forces (from the age of 14) and his number was 3485 in the Connaught Rangers, joining in Galway in 1889.
        So after 30 years of searching for my lost Gt. Grandfather and Gt. Grandmother, I am now pretty sure the 'story' was true. I now have Manchip as John's father and Nolan as his mother. I now just have to zoom in and get the right ones!"

        Is the name John an error...
        In the above you have your John Nolan as being Army No 3485 in the Connaught Rangers.
        Army records on Ancestry show this to be Thomas Nolan, who joined 25 July 1889 at Galway, age 14 yrs born Hong Kong. Married Ann Reddy 2 Feb 1903.
        They have 4 children shown in the records.
        Rgds Matt
        My avatar is my fathers father,name unknown.............................

        Comment


        • #5
          Sorry it was Thomas Nolan in the forces.
          Last edited by castanea1985; 06-09-19, 16:51.

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          • #6
            Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise we don't bump threads, I meant to be helpful lol. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, sorry! (Can't do links on this kindle).

            OC

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
              Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise we don't bump threads, I meant to be helpful lol. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, sorry! (Can't do links on this kindle).

              OC
              Don't worry, it got sorted. If I had thought about it, I should have closed it earlier but I was a bit distracted.
              Caroline
              Caroline's Family History Pages
              Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

              Comment


              • #8
                what an amazing discovery, great story.

                What are you missing with the Manchin family?
                Carolyn
                Family Tree site

                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re Thomas Nolan & the 2 wives named Sarah...
                  There is a marriage in Belfast between a Thomas Nolan & Sarah Armstrong.
                  Date- 11 December 1870 at St Patricks RC Chapel Belfast.
                  He is aged 26 yrs, Bachelor. Occupation- (Looks like Drummer) 80th Regiment. Father-Thomas a bootmaker.
                  She is aged 18 yrs,spinster.Occupation- servant. Father- James a labourer.
                  Both living at Belfast Barracks.
                  With Thomas being in the army maybe he was stationed in China. If so this may well be why his son was born in Hong Kong & may be that Sarah died out there.
                  Matt.
                  My avatar is my fathers father,name unknown.............................

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Many thanks for that Matt.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Many thanks for that Matt. Where would I find Information on him in the 80th regiment?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/ may help,you can get a 1 mth sub for about £9.
                        Ancestry has a higher level of cover that includes military records. I'm sure someone on here will have a look.
                        Matt.
                        My avatar is my fathers father,name unknown.............................

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re Michael & Elizabeth the 2 children of Thomas Nolan & his 2nd wife Sarah.
                          Michael was born 6 Nov 1878 at Apoleen,Galway. Father Thomas a peasant,mother Sally Kean.
                          Elizabeth was born 16 March 1882 at Apoleen,Galway. Father Thomas a peasant,mother Sarah Kean.
                          1901 census shows the 4 of them living at Ahapouleen,Ballynacourty,Galway.
                          In 1911 living at the same location,Sarah is a widow. Son Michael is head of family,a farmer. Also his wife Maria & son Thomas 3 mths.
                          No sign of Elizabeth......Wonder if she has gone to Manchester and had a son ?
                          Thomas died 20 March 1909 age 76 yrs. Occ a farmer, his wife Sarah was the informant.
                          Sarah died 10 May 1930 age 89 yrs. Son Michael was the informant.
                          Matt
                          My avatar is my fathers father,name unknown.............................

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi had those census results, but am not sure they match the elder Thomas Nolan, as in the army records he was from Limmerick? Michael and Thomas were listed as farmers? Would this be right if he'd been a drummer in the army?
                            Last edited by castanea1985; 07-09-19, 15:51.

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                            • #15
                              Thomas Nolan senior army listings.jpg
                              This is the list of countries that Thomas Nolan (snr) visited when in the 80th Regiment. It clearly shows him in Hong Kong when his son, Thomas was born (1875). So I think we can safely say this is the correct father. I just want to verify him marrying the second Sarah, and having two further children, of which I hope Elizabeth was my Gt. Grandmother.
                              I know Thomas Snr came from Limmerick as this was stated in the Army records. (#668). He appears to have been born around 1841, as he was 14 when he enlisted in 1855.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Hi
                                You found his army records, does it give Limerick as his place of birth or the place of enlistment. His son Thomas joined at Dublin. My own F-in-law travelled from Clare
                                to sign up in Belfast
                                In the birth record for Elizabeth & Michael he is recorded as a peasant. This was an agricultural labourer or small farmer paying rent. Working as a labourer he would
                                learn farm working & by 1901 he has become a farmer. On the census look at the House & building form B and B2. This shows details of house size & outbuildings.
                                Matt
                                My avatar is my fathers father,name unknown.............................

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Yes, found them on 'findmypast' He is down as born 1841 in Limerick town, Limerick. So this doesn't tie in with the census, as that Thomas Nolan was born I 1833
                                  Last edited by castanea1985; 07-09-19, 19:41.

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                                  • #18
                                    Hi Carolyn, from the previous Y chromosome DNA test, My uncle (John Nolans son) had a match to a living Manchip and it said it was approx 3 or 4 generations back. Fortunately in his tree, it took us back to 3 generations, to a James O Manchip b.1846 in Bridgwater Somerset m. Alice Spencely b, 1841 bloomsbury, London. They had 8 children, 5 boys and 3 girls. All the boys appear to have been in the forces.
                                    Thomas A. Manchip b. 1872 Lambeth, London d. 1960 Marlborough, Wiltshire.
                                    Henry Charles b. 1875 Hammersmith, London d. Edinburgh, Scotland
                                    James O b. 1878, Fulham, London d. 1949 Clapham Common, London.
                                    Wiliam Richard b. 1881 West Kensington d.1949 Clapham, London
                                    Walter John. b. 1883 Edinburgh d. 1943 Sydney, NSW, Australia.
                                    If we go back 4 generations, there are quite a number of male Manchip's.
                                    What I was wanting to know, is if any of the above were in the army, stationed in Ireland or Northern England, at a time when my grandfather was conceived.

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                                    • #19
                                      Castanea, so what you really need is the service records of those Manchip men, bearing in mind that Miss Nolan could also have been more or less anywhere too, as she was a music hall singer.

                                      OC

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                                      • #20
                                        Yes, OC. I'm trying to concentrate on the Nolan side first as now I at least have my gt. gt. grandfather. Thomas Nolan b.1840 in Limerick
                                        Then if I can work my way down to him having a daughter (as I'm pretty sure the tree I originally copied have the wrong census so probably not the Elizabeth I originally thought.) So I'm concentrating on the facts.. from Thomas's army records.. although I'm not good at deciphering them ...
                                        in fact I have his son, Thomas b.1879 joining the Connaught Rangers in Galway at the age of 14... but where it says have you lived away from your father for three year it says this... which I think says military school... but not sure..
                                        Screenshot 2019-09-08 at 13.38.55.jpg
                                        Last edited by castanea1985; 08-09-19, 14:09.

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