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  • #21
    I've now had a reply from the Manchester Registration Service to say that they are unable to find a Birth Registration for Richard Kean, Born Hulme, 1860.

    They're refunding me and advise me to keep checking the Lancs BMD Site, as the Manchester Family History Society are adding Mother's Maiden Names to the pre 1911 Birth Entries.

    Holly.

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    • #22
      It does seem very curious that the Birth Records for the 3 eldest children don't seem to be on the Lancs Site, - whereas all of the younger children, (after Frances) are?

      I wonder if they were Registered in a different Sub District?


      Records from St. Wilfrid's Roman Catholic church Hulme (Name spellings of Kean/Keane/Kain & Cain).
      All names are in Latin.

      St Wilfrid,Bedford Street, Hulme (closed in 1990 ).? Link

      Child: Maria Anna Cain
      Baptised: 1st Jun 1856
      Father: Ricardi Cain
      Mother: Franciscae Butler
      Godfather: Patricius Hanley
      Godmother: Sarah Finherty
      Notes: Born 15th May 1856

      Child: Thomas Cain.
      Baptised: 27th May 1858
      Father: Richardi Cain.
      Mother: Franciscae Buckley of: 11 Lime street.
      Godfather: Not named
      Godmother: Anna Conroy
      Notes: Born 13th May 1858.

      Child: Ricardus Kean
      Baptised: 22nd Apr 1860
      Father: Ricardi Kean.
      Mother: Francescae Butler of: 76 Queen street, Hulme.
      Godfather: Not named
      Godmother: Sarah Finnerty.
      Notes: Born 23rd Feb. 1860

      Child: Sarah Joanna Cain
      Baptised: 8th June 1862
      Father: Richardi Cain
      Mother: Franciscae Butler of: 163 Chester Road
      Godfather: Not named
      Godmother: Joanna Butler
      Notes: Born 14th Jan 1862

      Child: Francis Elizabeth Kain.
      Baptised: 21st Aug 1864
      Father: Ricardi Kain
      Mother: Fransescae Butler of: 132 Chester Rd
      Godfather: Jacobus Barrett
      Godmother: Elizabeth Barrett
      Notes: Born 9th Dec 1863
      Child: Johannes Cain.
      Baptised: 4th Feb 1866
      Father: Richardi Cain
      Child: Gulielmus Keane
      Baptised: 1st March 1868.
      Father: Ricardi Keane.
      Mother: Francescae Butler of: 337 City Rd.
      Godfather: Not named
      Godmother: Maria Anna Perringer?
      Notes: Born 19th Dec. 1867

      Child: Edwinus Kean.
      Baptised: 10th Apr 1870
      Father: Richardi Kean.
      Mother: Francescae Butler of: 72 Dawson St?
      Godfather: Not named
      Godmother: Maria Anna Kean.
      Notes: Born Jan 15th 1870

      Child: Joanna Keane
      Baptised: 3rd Sep 1871
      Father: Richardi Keane.
      Mother: Francescae Butler of: 35 Hardman street.
      Godfather: Not named
      Godmother: Maria Anna Keane
      Notes: Born 24 Aug 1871

      Child: Jacobus Cain
      Baptised: 18th May 1873
      Father: Richardi Cain
      Mother: Francescae Butler
      Godfather: Not named
      Godmother: Sarah Corcoran
      Notes: Born 18th May 1873.



      Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1863
      Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
      KEAN Frances BUTLER Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/114/73

      Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1865
      Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
      KEAN John BUTLER Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/126/60

      Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1870
      Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
      KEAN Edwin BUTLER Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/151/69

      Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1873
      Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
      KEAN James BUTLER Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/173/54

      Holly.

      Comment


      • #23
        Many of my Manchester relatives were not registered at birth but they were baptised. Before 1865 (?) it was the responsibility of the registrar, not the parents, to seek out births and register them. There was some resistance from the church, who saw civil registration as an encroachment on their traditions (and their income, haha) and I get the feeling they suggested that as long as the child was baptised, civil registration didn't matter. The law was tightened up and changed to put responsibility for registration onto the parents.

        The other possibility is that many Manchester registrations simply never made it to the GRO for whatever reason. I have proof of this in my own family research. When I queried this with the GRO some years ago, they said it was impossible.

        OC

        Comment


        • #24
          Thanks for your imput OC.

          It's just very frustrating, when I've tried so hard to find him!

          Holly.

          Comment


          • #25
            Yes, it is infuriating! I have a mystery man born in 1854 in Hulme, or so he says on all census, but he definitely wasn't registered there, nor baptised.

            OC

            Comment


            • #26
              I was just reading again what the Manchester Registration Service had to say about why a Birth might not have been Registered:

              'It is possible that the birth has not been registered. From 1837 - 1875 the registrar had the responsibility to collect registrations, after 1875 you had to go to the register office as you do today, so there are missing births. It is possible that there could also be a mistake in the transcription or that he was registered with a different first name and they used his Baptism name. The Manchester and Lancashire Family History Society are in the process of checking and adding mothers maiden name to the lancashirebmd website, so keep checking it'.

              And so basically, - they are saying that there are many missing Births!

              Holly.

              Comment


              • #27
                Have you discounted Mary Ann Cane, Deansgate 1856? I know that's not who you are looking for!

                OC

                Comment


                • #28
                  Thanks for looking OC.

                  If I'm looking at the same Mary Ann Cane, her father was Dominic Cane. (On her Marriage Cert).

                  I know that Mary Ann Kean married William Henry Gregory.

                  Holly.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I had one where the father was born in Ireland and the children on census are born Manchester. I ended up finding they were born in Liverpool !

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      the gap between birth and baptism is very close on the first 2 and then it gets longer, no idea what that means, they move every time as well!
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        If the dates on the last Baptism are correct, Jacob was Born and baptized on the same day!

                        Surely that's not possible?

                        Holly.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Quite possible if he was not expected to live. I don't know what happens in the RC faith but would think it similsr to the C of E in that anyone who has themself been baptised can baptise someone else usually a baby in extremis. In the C of E they often record this as private baptism, but it is followed by a service of receiving into the church, if they survive.

                          OC

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Holly View Post
                            If the dates on the last Baptism are correct, Jacob was Born and baptized on the same day!

                            Surely that's not possible?

                            Holly.
                            Certainly is - happened often with my 19th century RC Irish ancestors. If not on the actual day of birth, usually the next day. And not the "informal" baptisms mentioned by OC - all done by the parish priest. They're all recorded in the parish register so it seems the newborn was taken to church for the ceremony rather than it being a home baptism.

                            Christine
                            Researching:
                            HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              i see that the mother died in 1873 also, so maybe in childbirth.

                              have you managed to track the tree to the Canadian connection?
                              Carolyn
                              Family Tree site

                              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                RC priests would go to the house if needed - don't forget that if the mother was thought possibly not to survive the birth experience, he may have attended to administer last rites, if needed . Similarly a sickly child may have been baptised and then given the last rites at the same time.

                                Jay
                                Janet in Yorkshire



                                Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                                • #36
                                  No, I'm still working on it Carolyn!

                                  Holly

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                                  • #37
                                    Many thanks all, - for the Baptism replies.

                                    Poor woman:-( She Died at 39yrs.

                                    Holly.

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