Service Record for The Royal Engineers 1891? finding Richard Kean b Manchester 1860

[Holly]

Yes, - that's what I thought.

I have wondered if some of it was down to time spent in The Royal Engineers?

It's very frustrating that it seems impossible to find a Service Record.

Holly:-(

[vera2013]

I will look again at Army records. Have Fold3 and Forces War records. Doubt he changed Regts before 1893 marriage given his abilities. Maybe went AWOL or discharged. Or possibly plans to post him abroad (just thinking aloud) Annoyingly there are Service records for the others on 1891 census.

I note that on all census Richard Snr is Cordwainer/Shoe and Boot maker except 1881 when he is a Commercial Clerk. Also on 1881 there was a Visitor George Mackay a Soldier b in Bombay. Father Francis also a Soldier. On FMP in India. Cant see what the connection is to the Keen's May be friend of the Painter's.

Vera

[Holly]

Many thanks Vera.

I've emailed The Royal Engineers Museum in Kent, to try to find out which Unit was at Shorncliffe Camp in 1891.

There are 6 pages for Shorncliffe Camp on the 1891, and the front page lists the Officer in charge, who was Lieutenant Colonel Allan J. C. McAllister, I think? He seems to have been a Mathematician.

Holly.

[Holly]

Just checked my notes, - and in fact the Commanding Officer was Lieutenant Colonel Allan Cunningham, (not McAllister, as given above).

Holly.

[Gwyn in Kent]

If your research leads back to Shorncliffe area, I can possibly help with look-ups in the Folkestone area.

I'm frequently in the Shorncliffe Camp area, much of which is at present being redeveloped for housing.

[Holly]

Many Thanks Gwyn, - your kind offer is much appreciated.

I'm surprised that there seems to be so little online about the Shorncliffe Camp. Wikipedia seems to focus mainly on it's early development.

I'm trying to find out which Unit of The Royal Engineers was based at the Camp during the 1891 Census, but can't find anything that might help:-(

Holly.

[vera2013]

Holly the Lt Col Cunningham in 1891 census was wth the Royal (Bengal) Engineers. He was retired by the time of the 1901 census

EDIT just read FIBIS. After the mutiny all were incorporated into British Army ie Corps of Royal Engineers.
Think RE's were not stand alone but joined a Rgt as and when/where needed.
There is a military forum which maybe able to help?

Wonder if that Death Cert for Mary Ann Kean 1891 Hulme would hold any clues. Thats if it is the right wife

Vera

[PhotoFamily]

Just checked my notes, - and in fact the Commanding Officer was Lieutenant Colonel Allan Cunningham, (not McAllister, as given above).

For my RE ancestor, I was able to name one of his Commanding Officers (on my great-grandmother's birth cert) and then find his service record. I can confirm that he served in the same place at the same time as my g'g'grandfather.

However. REs did not stay with one regiment thru out their engagement! They were reassigned to units as their skills were needed. So finding his CO's record was not useful.

This is an excerpt of RE Recruit requirements that I found when I was researching:
ENGINEER RECRUIT TRAINING

The following is quoted from Grierson (1899):*

"With the exception of drivers, every recruit enlisted for the "Royal Engineers" must know some trade. The drivers are trained at the depot of the field-engineers at Aldershot, the sappers at the Chatham depot, where the latter are trained for a year in infantry drill and pioneer duties..."

Ann Swabey, ftf member, is a research at Kew, and may be able to shed light on records and RE personnel practices.
PM also sent

Ah, and Col. De Santis website also has terms of engagement, and seem to pertain to about the period of your man's engagement:

http://www.reubique.com/ENLIST.htm

[vera2013]

Typing whilst you posted Photofamily. That is interesting

Vera

[PhotoFamily]

That website's home page isn't working for me. Here's one of his write ups about a Sapper who served about the same time as my ancestor:

http://www.reubique.com/3620.htm

and his own bio:

https://www.reubique.com/091381.htm

[PhotoFamily]

I think I also connected with knowledgeable people at this website:

http://www.victorianwars.com

(and it was someone here who suggested I go there!)

[PhotoFamily]

For my RE ancestor, I was able to name one of his Commanding Officers (on my great-grandmother's birth cert) and then find his service record. I can confirm that he served in the same place at the same time as my g'g'grandfather.

That is - my g'g'grandfather was indeed serving in the same location as the CO on my g'grandmother's birth cert. But that was the only point in time that they served together.

[Holly]

Gosh!

Thanks so much Vera and PhotoFamily!

What a wonderful amount of new information to read through and digest :-)

One further thought, - my relative started his own business in Swansea in 1895 with the sum of £36. Might this be the sort of gratuity that a Sapper might obtain on leaving the Service?

Holly.

[vera2013]

Gosh!

Thanks so much Vera and PhotoFamily!

What a wonderful amount of new information to read through and digest :-)

One further thought, - my relative started his own business in Swansea in 1895 with the sum of £36. Might this be the sort of gratuity that a Sapper might obtain on leaving the Service?

Holly.

£35 in 1891 equivalent to £4400 approx 2019.

Vera

[PhotoFamily]

with the sum of £36. Might this be the sort of gratuity that a Sapper might obtain on leaving the Service?
Holly.

Not sure. But that seems like a big sum for the time period, and I don't think he could have served that long. Ann Swabey or the Victorian War website might be able to give you a better answer.

The only reason I know where and when my ancestor served was thru payroll records. WO research at Kew.

[Holly]

Many Thanks both.

PhotoFamily, I've been searching Discovery on The National Archives Site, and I think I've narrowed my Search down to WO 73/42 and 73/43.

Only searchable at Kew as you say, and so I shall have to visit if I want to search them.

Holly.

[vera2013]

Looking from a different angle and possible reason for a name change.

1880 A Mary Ann Young m Richard Kean
1882 Mary Agnes Kean b Chorlton reg mmn Young
1884 Joseph b Chorlton reg mmn Young d 1884
1885 Catherine b Chorlton reg mmn Young
1891 Mary Ann Kean d aged 29 b 1862
1891 09/01/1891 admission to Manchester Workhouse, R/C Mary ?Ann and Catherine, R/C, Chorlton, Grandfather informant (no name given)
1891 census Mary A and Catherine (ages transposed) at Holly Mount Poor Law School, Tottington Lower End, Bury.

Will try to find a record to link them to Richard Kean

Vera

[cbcarolyn]

Looking from a different angle and possible reason for a name change.

1880 A Mary Ann Young m Richard Kean
1882 Mary Agnes Kean b Chorlton reg mmn Young
1884 Joseph b Chorlton reg mmn Young d 1884
1885 Catherine b Chorlton reg mmn Young
1891 Mary Ann Kean d aged 29 b 1862
1891 09/01/1891 admission to Manchester Workhouse, R/C Mary ?Ann and Catherine, R/C, Chorlton, Grandfather informant (no name given)
1891 census Mary A and Catherine (ages transposed) at Holly Mount Poor Law School, Tottington Lower End, Bury.

Will try to find a record to link them to Richard Kean

Vera

looks like great detective work, wonder where they went, definitely looks promising

[Holly]

I have fairly high DNA Matches to a Kean family in Woodstock, Ontario, Canada. I match to the Father, Nephew and Grandson.

The only link that I have managed to work out is that Thomas Kean, Born Manchester 1860 married Mary Ann Elizabeth KAY.

Also, Mary Ann Elizabeth Kay's sister, Sarah Hannah Kay, married John Kean, Born Manchester 1866.

Mary Ann and Sarah Hannah Kay's Parents were Samuel James KAY and Sarah KAY.

At some stage, Thomas and Mary Ann Kean must have emigrated to Canada. I haven't found out when...

Holly.

[Holly]

Plus, I haven't worked out how Richard Kean is related to Thomas and John Kean as yet!

Holly.