Service Record for The Royal Engineers 1891? finding Richard Kean b Manchester 1860

[Holly]

No Vera, I think I pursued the Royal Engineer Record as far as was possible. I posted here rather than starting a new thread, as there’s already info about him on here, but perhaps it’s misleading?

I was trying to see if there was anything else on Richard Kean, born 1861 in the Manchester Regiment. FMP don’t seem to have the Service part of his Record.

Holly.

[vera2013]

Will look some more on NA. I always use the Discovery catalogue.

Vera

[Holly]

Unless I’m misunderstanding it, I think the National Archives say that Service Records for the Manchester Regiment are held by Tameside Borough Council?

[PHP] 

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[cbcarolyn]

Have put the downloads here for Richard Kean

https://photos.app.goo.gl/W1itwdvA721MhLgw7

[Holly]

Many thanks Carolyn.

I don’t know if I’ve already mentioned it, but I have DNA matches to the descendants of Thomas and John Kean, (brothers of Richard Kean).

I just wish that I could find something on Richard Kean after 1886:-(

Holly.

[annswabey]

Caroline. Thanks for mentioning me. It must be out of date, as so many records are more available now

[cbcarolyn]

Hello,

I have Richard Kean, age 28yrs, Born Manchester, (1860/'63) on the 1891 Census for Kent:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/17094937?h=8cf52c&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url

There is an Entry on Ancestry on the WW1 Medal Rolls for a Richard Kean, - but this man would have been in his mid 50's by then, - and so probably not him?

There is another Army Record for a Richard Kean on Ancestry, which shows him enlisting for The Manchester Regiment. I've downloaded the Attestation papers, and it is for the right man, as it names his Father, also Richard Kean, of 6 Harper Street, Hulme, Manchester.

Could anyone on here please tell me if it's possible to access the Service Record for the Richard Kean shown on the 1891 Census?

I can then ascertain if I'm following the same man.

Cheers, Holly.

Been re-reading the thread as have forgotten details I am not sure if it was decided that these can't be same man? Or could they be and he transferred from one regiment to another?

[Holly]

The problem is that it’s impossible to tell, carolyn...

I tried to find a Service or Pension record for the man in The Royal Engineers, but they only kept them for men who served over 20 years.

Nothing for this man, and I can’t find him after 1891.

Holly.

[cbcarolyn]

I knew very little about military until starting searching for others on here, and I notice that a few have transferred, so from that point of view it could be same guy,

I have no knowledge what the process was for soldiers that signed up for a short service, like you say they didn't seem to feature in pension records as there are some downloads available for records, and I did download a book last night, and could see most were around 20 years. If he was invalided out then you might be lucky. the records I was looking at are unindexed so you need a clue on dates. I just looked at 6 years after attestation- so book with November 1892 in it.

I guess worth looking at other siblings in depth he may have turned up somewhere, have you done much with any of them?

[Holly]

Yes, I initially tried following all of the children of Patrick Butler and Jane Howard, parents of Frances Butler, who Married Richard Kean.

Richard Kean, Born Hulme 1832, married twice, first Frances Butler, second Martha Paynter.
From the 2 marriages, he had 12 children! I was looking at the one who had the same birth year as my Grandfather, 1860, but I could be wrong...?

Perhaps I should start a new Thread?

Holly.

[Holly]

Also, - the 1886 Attestation Papers for Richard Kean show that he joined the Militia, - and so a bit like joining the Territorials today? At the end of the 6 year period, he could have joined the regular Army, - perhaps The Royal Engineers?
It should say this on the 3rd page of the Attestation Papers on FMP, but that page is obscured.
Holly.

[vera2013]

Gosh what a conundrum. As you say page with details of Service covered but would he have had any service other than local as a militia man I wonder.

As his father Richard Kean Snr b 1830's vouched in 1886 that Richard Kean b 1860/1 had lived at the home address for over 7 years, who are the Richard and Margaret in the 1881 Was it a fib. Also age of Richard on Attestation doesn't match previously recorded dob of 1860/1. Also recorded as being single.

Did you ever get 1891 DC of Mary Ann Kean (Young) to check out informant? I note the children were left with the Guardians by Richard Kean Snr very soon after their mother's death. Possibly not expecting permanent return of Richard Kean Jnr.

I agree with Carolyn, need to follow children, Mary Agnes and Catherine and extended family for clues. The children should be in the 1891 census.

EDIT I see post 77 children at Holly Mount Poor Law School, Bury. Dobs transposed.

Vera

[PhotoFamily]

It should say this on the 3rd page of the Attestation Papers on FMP, but that page is obscured.
Holly.

Do you think that if another person attempted to look at the original papers, that perhaps the detail of page 3 could be made out? It would probably take a paid researcher to go look at it for you.

[Holly]

PhotoFamily, - The original Record is held at Kew. I can request a copy online, I think, by completing a request form. I have all the details of where it’s located, and will get on the case with it tomorrow.

Vera, I’m pretty sure that it was Richard Kean and Mary Ann on the 1881, - just mistranscribed as Margaret.

Mary Ann Kean most probably died in childbirth, or of some complications following childbirth. Life was pretty brutal for women at that time. The Informant to the Death was most probably her husband or another relative. I only found the death yesterday, but I don’t know that much would be gained by ordering the Cert.

I think I’ve found Catherine Kean on the 1901 Census for Bury, as a Servant:

Source Citation
Class: RG13; Piece: 3637; Folio: 53; Page: 43

[cbcarolyn]

I think Catherine married?

28 Jun 1911 • Watertown, Middlesex, Massachusetts, USA Herbert Johnson, does have father as Richard.

the Mary death was posted earlier on in the thread.

[annswabey]

It's not true to say that in order for service records to have survived, a man had to have served for 20 years
Generally service records were retained for those who received an Army pension (although there are lots of men who fit this category whose records didn't survive). Pensions could have been granted for long service, but also for disability or illness, so a man may have only served for a shorter period to qualify. I've been to the National Archives a number of times since they reopened, and the general rule, apart from one series of records, is that they won't supply copies at the moment. The record you mentioned, where there is a small slip covering another page, is common. It doesn't necessarily mean that the page behind it is obscured. Even on a visit to the National Archives, you have to jump through hoops to be allowed to see an original record, as they just argue that they are online. Its worth searching the online service records for WW1 - there are some much earlier service records included

[PhotoFamily]

. The Informant to the Death was most probably her husband or another relative. I only found the death yesterday, but I don’t know that much would be gained by ordering the Cert.

Husband's name and occupation; address; and yes, the informant.

[Holly]

I think Catherine married?

28 Jun 1911 • Watertown, Middlesex, Massachusetts, USA Herbert Johnson, does have father as Richard.

the Mary death was posted earlier on in the thread.

Do you mean a Death for Mary Agnes, born December 1881, daughter of Richard and Mary Ann Kean?

Holly.

[Holly]

annswabey, I think I’ll submit an Enquiry Form about that Record to Kew, and see what they say.

I have previously visited Kew and gone through Attestation Forms, but I was looking for William James Wilson then...

No problem about seeing them though, I pre ordered them on my Readers Ticket for there. That was pre COVID though.

Holly.

[cbcarolyn]

I assume that there must be a number of records that could be worth looking up refs before you go, guess if he had something to hide then maybe it makes it harder.

I have just been reading the other threads on here
https://www.familytreeforum.com/foru...w-can-i-search
https://www.familytreeforum.com/foru...-census-please
https://www.familytreeforum.com/foru...nd-this-family

Perhaps it maybe useful to summarise where you are at, although it sounds like DNA might be your hope, and need to follow up those trees. You need some of the DNA experts on here. Maybe a new thread asking about that with the matches.

I personally would create a new public tree with information that you are willing to share, different from your main tree, then it maybe easier to follow and keep up. I also wouldn't be concerned if you don't think it is accurate, plenty aren't - you could always entitle not accurate/test or similar

Have you done much searching through the newspapers? not really sure what to hope for in there.