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  • #21
    sorry - this post was wrong!
    Last edited by cbcarolyn; 06-07-19, 23:01.
    Carolyn
    Family Tree site

    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

    Comment


    • #22
      Yes, I agree, very unlikely as although the name of Mary's father (Owen) and Mary's residence at the time of marriage in 1864 ( 13 Romney Place) match that of the 1861 census, your Mary Eliza (Elizabeth) who married 1862 can be seen with John Howard in the 1871.

      I also note that te baptism of one of the Green boys gives mother's name as Mary Ann

      Vera
      Last edited by vera2013; 06-07-19, 23:06.

      Comment


      • #23
        I have an 1871 census in Bermondsey? but first born is
        Sarah:
        GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in ROTHERHITHE Volume 01D Page 583
        then John in 1866
        Carolyn
        Family Tree site

        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

        Comment


        • #24
          What information do you have on Mary Eliza - how do you know her mother is Mary Shea?
          Carolyn
          Family Tree site

          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

          Comment


          • #25
            So I got the name Shay (sp) from some of the birth records I found of the children that I linked to Owen and Mary from the census in 1861 that you showed (that is the census I found). There is then a marriage of owen mack and Mary shay (sp) in 1840. I'm guessing that I have probably now got this entirely all wrong, it just seems very bizarre that in some instances they match perfectly and in some they dont! The Elizabeth in 1871 could also be a red herring and although I can't find John marrying again (yet), perhaps Mary Eliza dies between 1866 and 1871 and this is a different person
            Robyne


            Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

            Comment


            • #26
              according to GRO there are 3 children with Howard and MMN as Mack:

              Sarah 1863, Ellen 1865 and John Robert 1868, like you say it maybe a step mother in 1871.
              Carolyn
              Family Tree site

              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

              Comment


              • #27
                I'm wondering about the connection with the John Howard marrying in Notting Hill to Susan Smith 1889 and the early life of John in Rotherhithe/Bermondsey.
                Are they the same person?

                Vera

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                • #28
                  John Howard marrying Susan Smith, is the John Howard born in 1866. These are my gg grandparents
                  Robyne


                  Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Thanks Lensgirl. EDIT ignore following. Can see the link in the 1911
                    Do you have family knowkedge of a Rotherhithe/Bermondsey connection. As you probably know Notting Hill is a long way from Rotherhithe although John Howard was dock labourer on mc which fits with the area.

                    Vera
                    Last edited by vera2013; 07-07-19, 18:01.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Have you had any luck?
                      I have been searching in Bermondsey and Rotherhithe on GRO and freeBMD
                      Interestingly I found a couple of deaths in 1867
                      Howard Eliza 1 Bermondsey 1d 65
                      Howard John Robert 0 Bermondsey 1d 65

                      But not found anything more interesting.

                      Can't find an Eliza Howard or John Howard death, I did begin to wonder if John Robert 1866 was Elizas child, he died, and then another maybe born in 1868 was different mother. But seems a bit of a tight timeline!
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Hi Carolyn

                        you could be onto something. In his marriage cert in 1889 he lists his age as 21. His birth year in the census' vary from 1866 to 1871. The 1911 census says 1868, but his death states birth year c1866.

                        I will take a look and see if I can find a birth and maybe match that to a possible marriage of his father

                        So at first glance, no other John R born after 1866. But also, no other births of a John R Howard at all. so who died? unless that child wasn't registered as born, but can you register a death without a birth?
                        Last edited by Lensgirl; 10-07-19, 13:32.
                        Robyne


                        Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          If there was an Eliza death it would help.

                          I noticed his birth year was all over the place, and a big coincidence that a John Robert died, but guess it could be a cousin (or in fact completely unrelated), maybe need to look at wider family of John Howard to get the complete picture. Bermondsey and Rotherhithe are so close I think they could be in either.

                          They certainly don't seem easy to find, I don't have FMP - do they have any other records?
                          Carolyn
                          Family Tree site

                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Sorry to jump back at this. I think given the other Mary with father Owen lists his occupation as builder, that fits far more with the marriage cert of the Mary marrying John Green. I think im going to have to disregard this family entirely and start again with just Mary and a father as Owen. I guess Mary could have come over from Ireland on her own after the 1861 census was taken and before June 1862 when the first banns were read. Her father might not even be called Owen, if she was illegitimate she could have just made it up!
                            Robyne


                            Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I can't remember if you had John Roberts Birth cert? did that help?

                              I see that the 2 witnesses at Mary and Johns wedding were both Howards, no Macks so maybe that means she didn't have family nearby.

                              did you have any luck in finding any more on her (or his) death?

                              Looks like a search of Irish records might help - I have no idea where to start on that.
                              Carolyn
                              Family Tree site

                              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Perhaps nobody in the household could read? In which case the spelling is at the mercy of the census taker, and if the accent was a strong Irish one, or the man in a hurry the Gillycuddy could have gone by the wayside???

                                Comment

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