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Last edited by cbcarolyn; 06-07-19, 22:01.Carolyn
Family Tree site
Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff
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Yes, I agree, very unlikely as although the name of Mary's father (Owen) and Mary's residence at the time of marriage in 1864 ( 13 Romney Place) match that of the 1861 census, your Mary Eliza (Elizabeth) who married 1862 can be seen with John Howard in the 1871.
I also note that te baptism of one of the Green boys gives mother's name as Mary Ann
VeraLast edited by vera2013; 06-07-19, 22:06.
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I have an 1871 census in Bermondsey? but first born is
Sarah:
GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in ROTHERHITHE Volume 01D Page 583
then John in 1866Carolyn
Family Tree site
Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff
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What information do you have on Mary Eliza - how do you know her mother is Mary Shea?Carolyn
Family Tree site
Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff
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So I got the name Shay (sp) from some of the birth records I found of the children that I linked to Owen and Mary from the census in 1861 that you showed (that is the census I found). There is then a marriage of owen mack and Mary shay (sp) in 1840. I'm guessing that I have probably now got this entirely all wrong, it just seems very bizarre that in some instances they match perfectly and in some they dont! The Elizabeth in 1871 could also be a red herring and although I can't find John marrying again (yet), perhaps Mary Eliza dies between 1866 and 1871 and this is a different personRobyne
Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)
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according to GRO there are 3 children with Howard and MMN as Mack:
Sarah 1863, Ellen 1865 and John Robert 1868, like you say it maybe a step mother in 1871.Carolyn
Family Tree site
Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff
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Thanks Lensgirl. EDIT ignore following. Can see the link in the 1911
Do you have family knowkedge of a Rotherhithe/Bermondsey connection. As you probably know Notting Hill is a long way from Rotherhithe although John Howard was dock labourer on mc which fits with the area.
VeraLast edited by vera2013; 07-07-19, 17:01.
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Have you had any luck?
I have been searching in Bermondsey and Rotherhithe on GRO and freeBMD
Interestingly I found a couple of deaths in 1867
Howard Eliza 1 Bermondsey 1d 65
Howard John Robert 0 Bermondsey 1d 65
But not found anything more interesting.
Can't find an Eliza Howard or John Howard death, I did begin to wonder if John Robert 1866 was Elizas child, he died, and then another maybe born in 1868 was different mother. But seems a bit of a tight timeline!Carolyn
Family Tree site
Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff
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Hi Carolyn
you could be onto something. In his marriage cert in 1889 he lists his age as 21. His birth year in the census' vary from 1866 to 1871. The 1911 census says 1868, but his death states birth year c1866.
I will take a look and see if I can find a birth and maybe match that to a possible marriage of his father
So at first glance, no other John R born after 1866. But also, no other births of a John R Howard at all. so who died? unless that child wasn't registered as born, but can you register a death without a birth?Last edited by Lensgirl; 10-07-19, 12:32.Robyne
Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)
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If there was an Eliza death it would help.
I noticed his birth year was all over the place, and a big coincidence that a John Robert died, but guess it could be a cousin (or in fact completely unrelated), maybe need to look at wider family of John Howard to get the complete picture. Bermondsey and Rotherhithe are so close I think they could be in either.
They certainly don't seem easy to find, I don't have FMP - do they have any other records?Carolyn
Family Tree site
Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff
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Sorry to jump back at this. I think given the other Mary with father Owen lists his occupation as builder, that fits far more with the marriage cert of the Mary marrying John Green. I think im going to have to disregard this family entirely and start again with just Mary and a father as Owen. I guess Mary could have come over from Ireland on her own after the 1861 census was taken and before June 1862 when the first banns were read. Her father might not even be called Owen, if she was illegitimate she could have just made it up!Robyne
Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)
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I can't remember if you had John Roberts Birth cert? did that help?
I see that the 2 witnesses at Mary and Johns wedding were both Howards, no Macks so maybe that means she didn't have family nearby.
did you have any luck in finding any more on her (or his) death?
Looks like a search of Irish records might help - I have no idea where to start on that.Carolyn
Family Tree site
Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff
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