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James Desbrow - A Mystery Grandfather

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  • #21
    this is the James from Irchester - so not him
    Carolyn
    Family Tree site

    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

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    • #22
      Originally posted by daldrow View Post

      I have copy of an 1851 Census transcription for Polebrook Northants recording Desbrow household members as (my editing)
      John Head born 1779 in Woodnewton, Northants tailor
      Sarah Wife born 1781 in Polebrook
      John [Jr] unmarried Son born 1802 in Polebrook tailor
      William unmarried Son born 1808 in Polebrook tailor
      According to the two records above there are thus two children of John Desbrow’s family not part of his 1851 household; of whom James is identified as one by the latter record.

      Here is the 1841 census John, Sarah and William only not sure if you have ancestry
      Carolyn
      Family Tree site

      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

      Comment


      • #23
        Thank you so much Carolyn for the effort you have put in. I have been sceptical all along that “my” James was a son of John & Sarah Desbrow (Woodnewton/Polebrook) despite the online attribution. Your findings seem to confirm that most likely he was not, since you have identified their four Polebrook-baptised offspring as John, Mary, William and Elizabeth — no James. It did occur to me at one time that William might have been William James or that a babe in arms had left Fenlake as James and arrived at All Saints in Polebrook as William. But No! In 1851 William was unmarried in Polebrook and James married in Finchley. Where to now?

        Comment


        • #24
          the only snippet you have is Fenlake,

          On family search there are a number of baptisms in Elstow, parents James and Mary (Disbury and Desborough), have you tried to find them?
          Mary, John, William, Elizabeth, Edward, James could be their first born

          there is the Ann Desbrow Elstow 1829 - she might be related

          Haynes and Maulden (next village to where I live) Also have a number of old births, these are a few miles of Fenlake
          Carolyn
          Family Tree site

          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

          Comment


          • #25
            It's not just that I only have Fenlake; I only have Finchley and London (in UK) thereafter.
            Over the years (since early 1960’s) on and off I have been on the track of James D., following various Desbrow families till my head now spins at the recollection of them all.
            I'll try your suggestions even if not now sure if I already have.
            I do not now subscribe to any ancestry sites but use free ones. That may be a bit restricting.
            Once more thanks for your continued interest and suggestions.

            Comment


            • #26
              well I think I have found them in 1841 as Desborough, still in Elstow

              but the father is not a tailor, an agricultural labourer, so not fitting particularly well:

              Name Age
              James Desborough 42
              Mary Desborough 45
              William Desborough 25
              Edward Desborough 20
              Betley Desborough 20
              Ann Desborough 12
              Mary Desborough 5



              you can always try the library for free access to ancestry and/or FindmyPast. you should be able to follow the links from here.
              Carolyn
              Family Tree site

              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

              Comment


              • #27
                re Finchley, and more recent records - EmpireUmpire that started the thread has made other posts on here, and there are is a lot of info on this thread:

                Carolyn
                Family Tree site

                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                  well I think I have found them in 1841 as Desborough, still in Elstow

                  but the father is not a tailor, an agricultural labourer, so not fitting particularly well:

                  Name Age
                  James Desborough 42
                  Mary Desborough 45
                  William Desborough 25
                  Edward Desborough 20
                  Betley Desborough 20
                  Ann Desborough 12
                  Mary Desborough 5



                  you can always try the library for free access to ancestry and/or FindmyPast. you should be able to follow the links from here.
                  I have found 2 further census where they are written as Derby, looks to be them.

                  He is down as born in Inksworth, Herts - I assume this to be Hinxworth, Herts and also down as Biggleswade, Beds, which is nearest big town.

                  There is a James with his dob and pob matching, parents John and Eleanor, and a large amount of siblings, Hinxworth/Edworth.

                  Name: James Disberry
                  Gender: Male
                  Baptism Date: 1 Mar 1794
                  Baptism Place: Hinxworth,Hertford,England
                  Father: John Disberry
                  Mother: Eleanor
                  FHL Film Number: 991332

                  BUT I cannot find this James with a James as a son. He just must have had a James, he had a Mary (1836), his wifes' name, and my guess there must also be another Mary that died. Elstow is so close to Fenlake, the next parish.

                  There is a rent record of him spelt Desborough, living in a Whitbread property and his son William (also spelt Desborough) in a Duke of Bedford property in Elstow, so name must be right, and census enumerator couldn't spell it.

                  Not sure if anyone else can find your James and maybe a Mary, in Elstow/Fenlake/Cardington. Not found the marriage either, maybe they moved to Elstow

                  Linda posted this, but nothing there:

                  Originally posted by ozgirl View Post
                  As mentioned in this book - towards the bottom of the 2nd column of the left page. Stated to be in the parish of Cardington



                  This book is the parish registers of Cardington from 1572 - 1812. However I couldn't find any Desbrow/Desboroughs in it.

                  https://archive.org/details/bedfords...08bedf/page/n5
                  see here for some Elstow links:
                  Carolyn
                  Family Tree site

                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Carolyn,

                    Your James Desborough in Elstow is definitely not “my” James Desbrow since dobs and wives’ names were respectively c.1799 and Mary and c.1807 and Ann Grace King.


                    I know my descent from “my” James via his wife Ann Grace King and eldest son Joseph in complete and verified detail. What I lack is James’ verified origins. There is no verification via baptismal records of James’ census claim that he was born Desbrow in Fenlake in 1808 and thus no consequent detail of his descent.


                    It occurs to me by way of explanation that if he were born illegitimate (presumably, but not definitely, as son of John D. in Fenlake) his baptism would normally be recorded by custom of the times in the name of his mother. I am trying to follow up that possibility.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      I have only suspicions of James being son of James desborough b 1794. I can't find him. Dates are tight, but your James maybe 1811 not 1808
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        My post at #26 would your James parents and his siblings, he would be first born as father is James. He was in London by 1841. As I say dates are a bit tight, I don't think you have anything firm on your James date of birth?

                        It just seems too much of a coincidence for a Desborough family to be within a mile of your James birthplace
                        Carolyn
                        Family Tree site

                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I cant find one baptism for the family, and there are Bedfordshire records out there, so maybe they were in different church, or not baptised.

                          So not sure how it can ever be proved, check ever record and maybe someone will pop up unexpectedly!

                          Been searching Fenlake in Ancestry too, and can see quite a few live in Elstow. Wondering with Samuel Whitbread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel...%E2%80%931796) and Duke of Bedford big renters that many moved to their properties and got work with them too.
                          Carolyn
                          Family Tree site

                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                            I don't think you have anything firm on your James date of birth?
                            I don't have anything firm but I do have an approximate likely birth date.

                            See 12) of my post #16:
                            12) According to copy of the Death Certificate for “my” James (which I have) he died on 27th December 1855 aged 48 years so that he would have been born in 1806 or 1807 ...
                            depending respectively on whether he was born on or after 27th December or not. The likelihood is that he was born before 27th December (and so in 1807).


                            From 30th March 1851 Census data he was registered as age 43 so that he would have been born in 1807 or 1808. Thus in view of the above he was (definitely) born in 1807 with the likelihood that he was born on or after 30th March.

                            Overall then on the supposition of accurate data, he was born in 1807 with the likelihood that it was on or after 30th March and before 27th December. (The probability of this latter is about 75% in fact.)

                            I hope that helps to clarify matters.


                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Correction to previous post

                              I have spotted a lapse in the reasoning of my previous post (#33)—for what it is worth and for which I apologise

                              James Desbrow was born in 1807, definitely (not likely) on or after 30th March and likely (not definitely) before 27th December; so almost certainly. This conclusion is subject to the correctness of the official data on which it is based.


                              Subject to the same propviso I can do slightly better than that based upon his marriage on 10th April 1836 aged 28. From this data by the same reasoning he was born on or after 10th April 1807 and likely before 27th December 1807 with the same probability.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I guess you are at a brickwall, maybe one day DNA will give you your answer

                                The family in Elstow maybe a connection, cousins and uncle?

                                Or there is a possibility that his dob is wrong, it has been known for people to declare the wrong age, although it is less likely as it has been consistent with marriage, and whoever registered his death.
                                Carolyn
                                Family Tree site

                                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Have you searched the british newspaper archive for Bedfordshire, I see that there are quite a few issues on there. I know the other chap that was posting on here had scoured the papers, but not so sure he did it for Beds as was looking for the children.

                                  You might get lucky with something, I did have a quick look but do not have a sub, couldn't see anything obvious, like a marriage/birth. And I think there were some linked to the people I had found. I visit the library if I need to see articles, having bookmarked them at home!
                                  Carolyn
                                  Family Tree site

                                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                  Comment

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