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Death missing from GRO?

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  • #21
    That is good that the reg office looked. At least you know it isn't there!
    Carolyn
    Family Tree site

    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
      That is good that the reg office looked. At least you know it isn't there!
      true, but still annoying that there isn't one...lol.. oh well, I guess i'll have to see if there was anything in a newspaper about it, though I'm not hopeful.
      Julie
      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

      .......I find dead people

      Comment


      • #23
        Just looked up newspapers for Mansfield and Nottingham 1850 on FMP. Nothing showing for her. Sorry.
        Lin

        Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by Lin Fisher View Post
          Just looked up newspapers for Mansfield and Nottingham 1850 on FMP. Nothing showing for her. Sorry.
          aww bless you Lin thank you x
          Julie
          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

          .......I find dead people

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
            Before 1875 it was quite possible to bury someone without a death registration certificate
            OC
            Not entirely correct - see Section 27: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1836_...ges_in_England

            Death certificates were still required before burial unless ordered by a Coroner

            ".....every Person who shall bury or perform any Funeral or any religious Service for the Burial of any dead Body for which no Certificate shall have been duly made and delivered as aforesaid, either by the Registrar or Coroner, and who shall not within Seven Days give Notice thereof to the Registrar, shall forfeit and pay any Sum not exceeding Ten Pounds for every such Offence"

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by teasie View Post
              ...every Person who shall bury or perform any Funeral or any religious Service for the Burial of any dead Body for which no Certificate shall have been duly made and delivered as aforesaid, either by the Registrar or Coroner, and who shall not within Seven Days give Notice thereof to the Registrar, shall forfeit and pay any Sum not exceeding Ten Pounds for every such Offence"
              Now that’s a terrifying bit of info. I can just imagine the loads of women and the mentally ill and severely disabled who could have technically been “dispatched” and buried without anyone knowing about it. The rich and powerful could easily pay £10 to the undertaker should he need to pay a fine. I doubt there would be many such fines paid as nobody would dare tell tales. If my thoughts are not too far fetched, I bet there would be a some poor souls never buried in a graveyard at all but in some far flung corner of a great estate.

              Comment


              • #27
                There is a very interesting book called, I think, the Victorian Poisoner, a scholarly work which tells how easy it was to get away with murder, usually by poisoning, in the early years of civil registration, because it was not necessary to provide proof of death in order to register a death, nor was it necessary to provide a death cert before burial. What should have happened and wht did happen, was miles apart - vicars had better things to do than check whether someone was going to register a death or not. Remember that burial had to take place very quickly in those days.

                OC

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                • #28
                  Scary indeed OC. Bad old times when there was little chance of the Harold Shipman’s of this world ever getting caught. And if no cause of death was required for a burial then my nightmare scenario feels even more real.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    My 4th great grandmother died in 1863 and was buried but no death cert. Had the local and general register offices look. No dice.

                    I thought the law was changed because of a black widow case? She killed like 5 husbands?

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                      My 4th great grandmother died in 1863 and was buried but no death cert. Had the local and general register offices look. No dice.

                      I thought the law was changed because of a black widow case? She killed like 5 husbands?
                      Not sure Kyle but according to mr man at the reg office as it was pre 1875 it wasn't compulsory so therefore her death wouldn't have been registered.

                      I knew about 1875 for births but presumed that deaths would have to be registered?
                      Julie
                      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                      .......I find dead people

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by teasie View Post
                        ".....every Person who shall bury or perform any Funeral or any religious Service for the Burial of any dead Body for which no Certificate shall have been duly made and delivered as aforesaid, either by the Registrar or Coroner, and who shall not within Seven Days give Notice thereof to the Registrar, shall forfeit and pay any Sum not exceeding Ten Pounds for every such Offence"
                        What that actually says is that IF a burial took place before the death had been registered, the registrar or coroner had to be notified within 7 days. It doesn't prohibit the burial from taking place.

                        In 1875, the new B&D Act tightened things up by requiring medical certificates.

                        Even today, it isn't uncommon for a registrar to regsiter a death AFTER the funeral has taken place - Coroners often allow that (and so can a registrar), even in cases which don't go to inquest.
                        Last edited by AntonyM; 27-04-19, 08:03.
                        Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
                        Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Thanks Antony

                          The questions is about registration though, so what I was perhaps clumsily trying to say is that there was still a legal requirement for the Registrar to be notified of the burial, and for the registrar to obtain all of the relevant information and issue a death certificate, even if this was after the burial.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            And here is an explanation of what I was trying to say about the GRO indexes, that there could be errors from its journey from original certificate to a central alphabetical list:

                            (just about Lancs - but same applies to all registers)



                            Civil Registration and the GRO Indexes


                            From 1 July 1837 all births, marriages and deaths were registered locally and the registers have been retained by the local register office ever since.


                            Every quarter each register office submitted copies of all births, marriages and deaths registered during the preceding three months to the Registrar General at the General Register Office (GRO) in London. These copies were bound into volumes and name indexes made of the name of each person born, married or deceased identifying the volume number and page within that volume on which the name appears. These indexes are variously known as GRO indexes or St. Catherine's House indexes (from the building where they were housed for many years).


                            The original GRO index books have always been open to free public inspection and in more recent years copies have been made widely available on microfilm and microfiche. More recently still, they have been published on commercial websites such as www.findmypast.com and www.ancestry.co.uk


                            The copy registers are today held by the Office of National Statistics (ONS) and copies of any entry may be purchased from them (in the form of a birth, marriage or death certificate) by quoting the details from the index and paying the appropriate fee.


                            What is the problem with this?
                            The GRO indexes were compiled from copies of the original register entries. Errors and omissions could and did occur both in the copying of the register entries and in the compilation of the indexes. To compound these problems, the original manuscript index books were copied into typed indexes and further errors and omissions introduced. As if this was not enough, when the index books were filmed, pages were occasionally missed and some of the images are not always completely legible. In consequence, it may prove difficult, if not impossible, to find reference to some events. An excellent discussion and further explanation of the benefits of using the original indexes instead of the secondary GRO indexes can be found in the comprehensive article by Tony Foster.


                            Where does LancashireBMD fit in?
                            LancashireBMD is a free on-line index to births, marriages and deaths registered in the county of Lancashire (as defined before the local government reorganisation of 1974). It is compiled by volunteers from the original registration books which are still held by the local register offices. By working from the original registers, it is possible to produce indexes which are considerably more complete and accurate than the GRO indexes. Copies of any register entry may be purchased from the local register office by quoting the details provided by LancashireBMD and paying the appropriate fee.
                            Last edited by cbcarolyn; 27-04-19, 13:35.
                            Carolyn
                            Family Tree site

                            Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                            Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              That's very informative Carolyn thank you :smilee:
                              Julie
                              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                              .......I find dead people

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by teasie View Post
                                Thanks Antony

                                The questions is about registration though, so what I was perhaps clumsily trying to say is that there was still a legal requirement for the Registrar to be notified of the burial, and for the registrar to obtain all of the relevant information and issue a death certificate, even if this was after the burial.
                                Yes - but that doesn't mean it always happened.
                                Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
                                Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                                  And here is an explanation of what I was trying to say about the GRO indexes, that there could be errors from its journey from original certificate to a central alphabetical list:

                                  (just about Lancs - but same applies to all registers)


                                  Partial quote from above: What is the problem with this?
                                  The GRO indexes were compiled from copies of the original register entries. Errors and omissions could and did occur both in the copying of the register entries and in the compilation of the indexes. To compound these problems, the original manuscript index books were copied into typed indexes and further errors and omissions introduced. As if this was not enough, when the index books were filmed, pages were occasionally missed and some of the images are not always completely legible. In consequence, it may prove difficult, if not impossible, to find reference to some events
                                  You will have noticed that what you have quoted was written in 2010 - that was the case for the original GRO registers but not the "new" GRO indexes. There has been a transcription involved of course. I do agree the county transcriptions are likely to be more accurate and just wish the counties for my ancestors had these transcriptions.
                                  Kat

                                  My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Kat

                                    You aren't missing much!

                                    I have three different copies of the marriage cert of my 2 x GGPs who married in church in Manchester in 1859.

                                    1 is a handwritten copy made by me many years ago from the church register. The writing in the register was easy to read so I doubt I made any errors in transcription.

                                    2. Is the certificate obtained from the local register office about 30 years ago, a handwritten contemporary copy.

                                    3. Is the certificate obtained from the GRO about 25 years ago, photocopy of their register.

                                    These three certificates differ markedly. The street address has gone from Smith St to South St, the groom is a widower on one, a bachelor on another and his bride is a widow. Their father' first names have been transposed and the couple's ages are wrong.

                                    Fortunately for me I was able to establish the truth before I saw the two later certs but my contact who only had the GRO copy was stumped!

                                    It all boils down to the old adage about needing three pieces of evidence to prove a single fact. In this case, a lot more than three pieces of evidence were needed.

                                    OC

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                                      You will have noticed that what you have quoted was written in 2010 - that was the case for the original GRO registers but not the "new" GRO indexes. There has been a transcription involved of course. I do agree the county transcriptions are likely to be more accurate and just wish the counties for my ancestors had these transcriptions.
                                      So did they get the info from the copy certs? I don't understand what records they have used. Shame that the funding has stopped for the rest of the records.
                                      Carolyn
                                      Family Tree site

                                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        have just read something that confirms this is the case.
                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment

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