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One last attempt to find a marriage

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  • #21
    I've been looking for the marriage but nothing as yet

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    • #22
      Thanks Val

      Jay
      Janet in Yorkshire



      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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      • #23
        Just heard from the lady on the Northumberland site. Disappointingly, neither couple had a marriage recorded in the Newcastle parish register. Next time she goes to do a record search, she will look through the records for other Newcastle RC church. I don't hold out much hope as RC marriages should have been registrar attended and recorded in the GRO index.
        So, I guess this is definitely the end of the line for this branch and that I'm never going to be able to discover whether or not the two Dunn girls were sisters or otherwise related. Similarly for Michael and the other McDonoughs:(
        Jay
        Janet in Yorkshire



        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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        • #24
          Jay

          I'm still having a poke around with this one and Roseann McCormick

          Note Cummins and Catherine married in Stockton years after 1st child was born. The Dunn girls may well have felt they needed to go out of area also.

          Just found out, after many years, the reason my Grandmother married out of area. She had in fact married locally 11 years earlier at the age of 17. Think she was more like aged 15. The revelation of all this came from a newspaper snippet about a child she had.

          Will look again at that Roseann. She had a child with The Vasey chap. Vasey Snr died and she remarried
          in Nth Yorks.

          Don' t give up.

          Vera

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          • #25
            Vera, I have the marriage cert for Cummins and Catherine - 10 Oct 1861 at "St Mary's Catholic chapel Middlesbrough in the district of Stockton." The first child that I know about was John, born in 1861, recorded in census as 1 month. So it was a wait of only a few months.

            I think one of the grand-daughters of Michael & Julia must qualify (in my family) as longest delay between children and marriage. Mary Ann Cochrane b1881 & William Davis b1877, 8 children between 1899 & 1914. They eventually married in 1940 - I reckon William was coming up to old age pension qualification and he found out they would get more money as a couple than he would as a single man. Mary Ann's mother had had an awful life with the man she married - perhaps it put her off and she wanted to be able to walk away if things didn't go well??

            Jay
            Janet in Yorkshire



            Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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            • #26
              Oh, yes Jay. Was getting muddled between the couples. I was thinking of Patrick and Catherine who had 1st child, Michael much earlier.

              Perhaps with such an influx of the Irish into a densely populated area, there was some fibbing or maybe the Priest was overwhelmed and just made sure the children were christened.


              Vera
              Last edited by vera2013; 16-04-19, 20:17.

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              • #27
                so annoying, maybe one day that is the sort of thing that DNA will tell you?
                Last edited by cbcarolyn; 17-04-19, 08:58.
                Carolyn
                Family Tree site

                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

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                • #28
                  Thanks Carolyn. As far as I know, genetic DNA testing is not yet able to confirm definitely that two individuals' ancestors were birth siblings, as opposed to possible cousins or other kinsfolk?? I feel sure that there were family connections between all these different couples, but without any sort of documentation or family stories, it's nigh on impossible to join up the dots. It's maddening that this was the first line with a documented great-great grandparent that I tracked - that was over 30 years ago and I'm still no nearer knowing any more, apart from having fairly recently learned the forename of that gt-gt-gdparent's partner!
                  If the records are not there to give you information, then it's curtains.:(:D

                  Jay

                  Jay
                  Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 17-04-19, 13:33.
                  Janet in Yorkshire



                  Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                  • #29
                    Jay

                    For what it's worth, you are not alone! The first ancestor I tried to trace, starting nearly 50 years ago, was my 2 x ggf. I know very little more than I did 50 years ago. Plenty of speculation but no proof. DNA testing hasn't helped either and probably never will. So very frustrating.

                    OC

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                    • #30
                      :( yes see what you mean, need someone with the family bible! Apparently there is one for my family but no idea where it went, I think my Mums cousin has it.
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                        Is this too far left field?

                        Martin Hogan to Catherine McDonough Dec 1855 Birmingham 6d 302

                        OC
                        This would irritate me, it ticks all boxes, who is to say he didn't do an apprenticeship in Birmingham? my own grt grandparents married in Uffculme Devon then moved to Nottinghamshire. I think I'd have to get it even just to rule it out. :smilee: have you tried FreeREG?
                        Julie
                        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                        .......I find dead people

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                        • #32
                          although the names are wrong too so maybe very unlikely, although another branch of the family?

                          names Jay posted are: Catherine Dunn (Mrs Patrick Hogan) and Julia Dunn (Mrs Michael McDonough.)
                          Carolyn
                          Family Tree site

                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                          Comment


                          • #33


                            possibly them in 1861. Martin mistranscribed

                            Bit of overkill here. Forgot she was a Catherine nee Dunn as opposed to a Catherine McDonough nee McCormick or was that the other way around. Time for a hot x Bun.

                            Happy Easter


                            Vera
                            Last edited by vera2013; 21-04-19, 12:37.

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Darksecretz View Post
                              This would irritate me, it ticks all boxes, who is to say he didn't do an apprenticeship in Birmingham? my own grt grandparents married in Uffculme Devon then moved to Nottinghamshire. I think I'd have to get it even just to rule it out. :smilee: have you tried FreeREG?
                              Thanks Julie, but I'm not actually seeking a Hogan & McDonough marriage or coupling! Oh yes, I've tried FreeREG, FreeBMD and the Irish PR indexed sites. Also any Northumberland RC PR I come across. I try to re-check all these sources from time to time in case new data has been added. Decades ago I also spent many hours at St Catherine's House London (way before the London FHC and the Met archives) combing through the big green quarterly marriage index volumes with no success.

                              Vera, it was a Rose McDonough who married a Mr McCormack, although there was a widowed Catherine McDonough in the household in 1851!

                              I have several 2 or 3 generation mini trees for various Northumberland McDonough families, but I can't connect these up with each other, or with my gang. I believe Ireland was a bit like Scotland and the clan system. The McDonough (and variants) stronghold was in the west of Ireland, great gaggles of them in Co Galway, Co Sligo, Co Mayo & Co Roscommon for starters.
                              I have been rather disappointed with the Irish RC records I've come across. I don't know why, but I had expected that they would be more detailed than they are, possibly as a means of the priest keeping a record of his flock.

                              I think I'm just going to have to accept that I've come to the end of my Mcdonough research at E/W 1861 & possibly 1851 census returns. I'm finding this hard, as I'm back into the later 1600's with all my other main lines.

                              Jay
                              Janet in Yorkshire



                              Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                              • #35
                                Sorry, I just assumed(!) that Dunn was the anglicisation of Donough and that Martin might have been a baptismal name for Patrick!

                                OC

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                                • #36
                                  I'm getting muddled between 2 treads.

                                  I dont know how you keep track of them.

                                  One thing that niggles me is Patrick's age. Nearly 20 years older than Catherine. There is a bachelor, boarder floating around, an Iron Worker. Was this a marriage of convenience, if at all, after Catherine became pregnant by A N Other. Doesnt help though in linking the Dunn girls.

                                  Seems strange that there would be a different attitude to marriage and pregnancies from Irish people in London in the 60's/70's. Then there would be marriage, pregnancy and Christening. Not necessarily in that order and letters from, usually the Mama, to ensure this happened.

                                  Forgot about the illiteracy. So maybe lack of communication from home meant the Dunn girls felt it was ok not to marry.

                                  Vera

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Vera, Patrick's age has always "worried" me and I have often wondered if he may have been a widower rather than a bachelor. (Another reason I would have liked to find a marriage record.)
                                    Just to confuse things even further, I have come across a Patrick Hogan and a Julia Dunn coupling (!!) & having children marry in New York. MY Patrick Hogan and Catherine Dunn could even have had a family connection??
                                    Several Ireland non RC marriages 1845 - 1855 on family search for both Patrick Hogan & Catharine Dunn, but none of them cross reference with same registration district and quarter. :(

                                    The famine years were a dreadful time; no doubt there would have been many orphaned children who were taken in by and came over with members of their extended family. I think many a "Patrick" and a "Mick" (or a Kate and a Bridie) would have come over and sought out a distant relative/homeland connection with the expectation that they would be taken in and "bunked up" for a while, until they got on their feet. Most of them went "home" after work every night, often to lodgings with fellow Irish. It was very rare to find an Irish girl employed "in place" as a live in servant - they were okay for scrubbing floors and rough domestic work, or for washing bedding and work clothes, but they were not considered eligible for parlourmaids or housemaids, or for handling delicate fabrics. A pecking order based on nationality certainly existed back then.

                                    Jay
                                    Janet in Yorkshire



                                    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                                    • #38
                                      Another reason why I think Catherine & Julia were related is that in 1911 one of Catherine's grand-daughters married a grandson of Julia. By 1863 The McDonoughs had moved north into the Northumberland coalfield, where they lived until their deaths. Patrick Hogan died in N/T in 1874. In 1881 his eldest son William was married and lived in Gateshead but the other three children lived in the same place as the McDonoughs. Daughter Nell had married and siblings Robert & Sally lived with her and her husband. In the 1880's William, Robert and Nell Hogan all emigrated to the USA, whilst Sally married in 1883 and lived out her days in the same town as Julia Mcdonough (nee Dunn) and her married daughters. Sally died in 1943 - oh, how I wish I'd asked my Dad about his maternal line! He probably had many a conversation with Sally. If only ......

                                      Looking through the Northumberland RC parish records, there are bp entries for some Dunn children - same area as where Julia lived. I've wondered if this could also be a connection with Julia and or Catherine, but it is ONLY a theory. Without any marriages documentation, it just remains speculation on my part and I have no way of confirming or negating relationships.

                                      Jay
                                      Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 21-04-19, 15:50.
                                      Janet in Yorkshire



                                      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                        Sorry, I just assumed(!) that Dunn was the anglicisation of Donough and that Martin might have been a baptismal name for Patrick!

                                        OC
                                        OC, Sorry, I missed your post yesterday - I hope you didn't think I was ignoring you. All ideas are always welcome!

                                        Jay
                                        Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 22-04-19, 08:01.
                                        Janet in Yorkshire



                                        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          A tantalising one, found thanks to the free Irish records over this weekend.


                                          Mich McDonough Baptism 20 Aug 1830 @ Rahoon, Galway, Ireland
                                          Father: John McDonough Mother:Cate Dunn

                                          I know from 1871 census (and from the informant at the registration of her death) that Michael's mother was Catherine. Her death cert records Catherine as widow of John. My Michael (and also his wife Julia) consistently gave Galway as their pob in census returns.
                                          Frustratingly I can find no other record for the above couple in the Ancestry Ireland collection - no marriage, no bp for other children.

                                          I'm very aware that a lot of Irish PR have not survived, whilst others remain at the various churches and have not been filmed.

                                          Jay
                                          Janet in Yorkshire



                                          Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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