Customs House Officer

[thomasalbertedward]

Thank you for looking. No, I can't find some of the birth registrations either yet.

Re Lucy - there's this birth HOOPER, REBECCA WEBB WEBB
GRO Reference: 1851 D Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 04 Page 267 and death Name Rebecca Webb Hooper
Death 01/1853 Lambeth London - that I think is William and Lucy's daughter. He tended to used the mothers' maiden names as the children's middle names. I don't know what happened to Lucy, but his first daughter to Caroline Townsend was born a few years later. Rebecca was a Hooper family name too

[thomasalbertedward]

I'll go check out William and Jessie in a minute, thank-you.

He is on the 1891 census at home in London - but he wouldn't be the first person I've seen recorded in two different households on the census.

George and Henry Hooper Townsend emigrated to Qld in 1874. They said they were 19 and 17, but were actually 15 and 17.

[Katarzyna]

I don't know if you actually have the 1891 census for Hoopers but it correct on FMP but really mangled on 1891 as Koper:

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/6598/LNDRG12_152_153-0676/10565334?backurl=https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/115347920/person/402083969138/facts

[cbcarolyn]

I have someone in 2 places as he was a travelling salesman.

I am getting a bit lost....

The gas man maybe another william hooper?

Emma/Ellen Thorns first child Stephen (1859) is not Williams? He was with her sometime after 1862. not on 1871 census with her and children, but on 1881 and 1891

After 1846 and before 1854 he was probably with Lucy Webb? no census for any in 1841?

after 1854 and before 1862 he was with Caroline no census for anyone in 1861?

[thomasalbertedward]

thank you

[thomasalbertedward]

I have someone in 2 places as he was a travelling salesman.

I am getting a bit lost....

The gas man maybe another william hooper?

Emma/Ellen Thorns first child Stephen (1859) is not Williams? He was with her sometime after 1862. not on 1871 census with her and children, but on 1881 and 1891

After 1846 and before 1854 he was probably with Lucy Webb? no census for any in 1841?

after 1854 and before 1862 he was with Caroline no census for anyone in 1861?

Yes, I think the gasman William Hooper with wife Jessie is another one - He seems to have been born in 1829, not 1820/21.

I think Ellen Thorne's first child William Stephen was William's. In 1861, when William Stephen is with his grandparents, Ellen is presumably away from home working. She was already working in London in 1851: Ellen Thorne
England and Wales Census, 1851
Name
Ellen Thorne
Event Type
Census
Event Date
1851
Event Place
Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Registration District
Marylebone
Residence Note
Acacia Road
Gender
Female
Age
16
Marital Status
Unmarried
Occupation
House Servant
Relationship to Head of Household
Servant
Birth Year (Estimated)
1835
Birthplace
Goudhurst, Kent
Page Number
28
Registration Number
HO107
Piece/Folio
1491 / 835
Affiliate Record Type
Household
Household
Role
Sex
Age
Birthplace
Thomas C Watts
Head
M
62
Winchelsea, Sussex
Sarah Watts
Wife
F
55
East Sutton, Kent
Robt J Watts
Son
M
23
Chelsea, Middlesex
Catharine Sumner
Servant
F
49
Birmingham, Warwickshire
Ellen Thorne
Servant
F
16
Goudhurst, Kent

She would have met William in London I think. I presume she was working somewhere in 1861 - haven't found her on a census yet. The Emma Thorne on the 1861 census is one of her sisters.

Between 1846 and 1854, we presume he was with Lucy Webb, yes. No luck finding anyone in 1851 yet - a few possibilities for both in 1841.

Between 1854 and 1861 he was with Caroline, yes - their last child was conceived late in 1861 and Caroline went into the workhouse with her 2 boys when she was a few months pregnant with Emma. No luck finding them or William in 1861 - though we have found the elder boy George William, being fostered in Wimbleton in 1861.

Thank you again for looking

[cbcarolyn]

Wow he is complicated

so
1841 - he should be on his own - or still with parents
1851 - he could be with Lucy Webb as no trace of any of them
1861 - he could be with Caroline Townsend as no trace of any of them
1871 - he should be on his own as Ellen and family found

Have you got a possible death date?

[thomasalbertedward]

Wow he is complicated

so
1841 - he should be on his own - or still with parents
1851 - he could be with Lucy Webb as no trace of any of them
1861 - he could be with Caroline Townsend as no trace of any of them
1871 - he should be on his own as Ellen and family found

Have you got a possible death date?

Yes, that is perfectly right. There are a couple of possibles in 1841 - Williams of the right age, in London and born out of the county/district, but there's no occupations given so a bit hard to know. Also, can't find a baptism for him at the moment - I wonder where else to look for possible Reading baptisms?

Death - yes, to narrow that down too - would be a good task for today. He was alive in 1891 and recorded as deceased on his daughter Ellen's marriage certificate in 1903 and given that he was 70 in 1891, it would be reasonable to assume he died in that time frame.

[thomasalbertedward]

Wow he is complicated

so
1841 - he should be on his own - or still with parents
1851 - he could be with Lucy Webb as no trace of any of them
1861 - he could be with Caroline Townsend as no trace of any of them
1871 - he should be on his own as Ellen and family found

Have you got a possible death date?

His youngest son, also William, died aged 21 in Islington in 1895 and that's there. But when I go looking for William the father, there's nothing obvious, in Islington or indeed any other part of the country! I wonder if one of the other Islington registrations is him and he wasn't quite as old as he said - maybe put his age up to marry Lucy Webb or get into the Excise department. We only have the later census records that claim he was born 1820/21. Certainly his last defacto Ellen said on the later census she was born 1840/41, when she was definitely born in 1835. Maybe William was born in the later 1820's and I should be looking for a christening record there?

[teasie]

Following this post with interest - it's quite a conundrum!

This may be entirely unconnected but there is an Alice Hooper born Jan-Mar 1871, Pancras, mmn Bailey (as mentioned at post #36). In 1861 there is a 'married' Ellen Bailey aged 23 born Goudhurst living in Islington, but no husband is with her & I cannot find any other Hooper/Bailey children in or around London.

Census ref for Ellen in 1861 is RG9, Piece 133, Folio 11, Page 34.

NB She is not the Ellen Bailey who gave birth to Elizabeth Emma Bailey in the workhouse in 1860, as in 1861 she & baby Elizabeth are in Shoreditch, living with her widowed sister Eliza Bruce.

[thomasalbertedward]

His youngest son, also William, died aged 21 in Islington in 1895 and that's there. But when I go looking for William the father, there's nothing obvious, in Islington or indeed any other part of the country! I wonder if one of the other Islington registrations is him and he wasn't quite as old as he said - maybe put his age up to marry Lucy Webb or get into the Excise department. We only have the later census records that claim he was born 1820/21. Certainly his last defacto Ellen said on the later census she was born 1840/41, when she was definitely born in 1835. Maybe William was born in the later 1820's and I should be looking for a christening record there?

Sorry, should have said his daughter Ellen's marriage in 1899.

[thomasalbertedward]

Following this post with interest - it's quite a conundrum!

This may be entirely unconnected but there is an Alice Hooper born Jan-Mar 1871, Pancras, mmn Bailey (as mentioned at post #36). In 1861 there is a 'married' Ellen Bailey aged 23 born Goudhurst living in Islington, but no husband is with her & I cannot find any other Hooper/Bailey children in or around London.

Census ref for Ellen in 1861 is RG9, Piece 133, Folio 11, Page 34.

NB She is not the Ellen Bailey who gave birth to Elizabeth Emma Bailey in the workhouse in 1860, as in 1861 she & baby Elizabeth are in Shoreditch, living with her widowed sister Eliza Bruce.

Wow, that is a great find thankyou -

Could well be our Ellen who had married/been defacto with a Mr Bailey in the interim. Will go and investigate further - so thankful she came from Goudhurst and not the city of London

[teasie]

If the 1861 Ellen is correct she's at St Stephen's Terrace, Islington West, and in 1861 at 27 Albert Street, Islington West is the following:
William Hooper 32 born Reading. No occupation
Elizabeth Hooper 23 wife

From what I can make out, the two addresses were less than a mile apart.

This would potentially make him the William Hooper born c1830, Reading
1841 – in Reading with parents William (Tobacconist) & Mary, plus siblings Mary, John & Peter
1851 – in Reading with mother Mary Ann Yard Hooper plus siblings Mary Ann & Peter
William Sr may be the tobacco manufacturer who was declared insolvent in 1842

By coincidence (?), Peter Hooper of Reading also had a daughter named Alice Hooper in Q1 1871
HOOPER, ALICE YARD mmn DILLON - GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 852

[teasie]

If (that word again!) the 1830 William from Reading is the correct one then the other death in Islington in 1895 may be him:

HOOPER, WILLIAM aged 66 GRO Reference: 1895 J Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 162

Deceased online has two potential burials, one on 26 April 1895 in Camden and the other on 04 July 1895 in Islington, but I don't have any credits to see which, if any, is the 66 y/o William.

[teasie]

Sorry, I cant seem to be able to edit my posts. Just to scupper my own thought process, there is a probate record in 1895 for the William Hooper who died 23 April 1895, with Administration to John Willats Hooper, retired grocer. John Willats Hooper (JWH) was another son of William the tobacconist and in 1911 JWH is at the same address as Jessie Hooper aged 70, so the April 1895 death looks like its the William who married Jessie Earl Graham, not 'your' William

[thomasalbertedward]

Sorry, I cant seem to be able to edit my posts. Just to scupper my own thought process, there is a probate record in 1895 for the William Hooper who died 23 April 1895, with Administration to John Willats Hooper, retired grocer. John Willats Hooper (JWH) was another son of William the tobacconist and in 1911 JWH is at the same address as Jessie Hooper aged 70, so the April 1895 death looks like its the William who married Jessie Earl Graham, not 'your' William

Thank you so much for all the terrific information. I am very appreciative.

There was also the death of William Hooper, aged 21 in the June quarter of 1895 in Islington. That was "our" William's youngest son.

Off now to try and process all the information. Thanks again

[vera2013]

Just a snippet. Did note previously that the Marylebone record for
Emma Hooper b 1862 04/08 bap 04/09
Father William occupation given as Tobacconist

Looked at the William b to William and Mary Anne Yard nee Willats. She ends up living and dying in Uxbridge, Middx (with d Mary Anne Eeles). There is also a Probate Record for her.

Edit Probate to John Willats Hooper rtd Grocer
Vera

[thomasalbertedward]

Just a snippet. Did note previously that the Marylebone record for
Emma Hooper b 1862 04/08 bap 04/09
Father William occupation given as Tobacconist

Looked at the William b to William and Mary Anne Yard nee Willats. She ends up living and dying in Uxbridge, Middx (with d Mary Anne Eeles). There is also a Probate Record for her.

Edit Probate to John Willats Hooper rtd Grocer
Vera

Thank you Vera

[thomasalbertedward]

If the 1861 Ellen is correct she's at St Stephen's Terrace, Islington West, and in 1861 at 27 Albert Street, Islington West is the following:
William Hooper 32 born Reading. No occupation
Elizabeth Hooper 23 wife

From what I can make out, the two addresses were less than a mile apart.

This would potentially make him the William Hooper born c1830, Reading
1841 – in Reading with parents William (Tobacconist) & Mary, plus siblings Mary, John & Peter
1851 – in Reading with mother Mary Ann Yard Hooper plus siblings Mary Ann & Peter
William Sr may be the tobacco manufacturer who was declared insolvent in 1842

By coincidence (?), Peter Hooper of Reading also had a daughter named Alice Hooper in Q1 1871
HOOPER, ALICE YARD mmn DILLON - GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 852

Re Peter Hooper - He was a son of William Hooper, the tobacconist and Mary Anne Yard. From Reading, Berkshire. Quite a few of their children used Yard as a second name for their own children. I'm increasingly thinking that their son William, born in 1829, is in fact "our William" and he put up his age for various reasons.

[cbcarolyn]

I had dismissed him as age so different, ooh how exciting this could be him.

Teasle - you can't edit posts until I think until you are 10 days on forum - a bit confusing, or see images big. I did a post when I first joined as thought I was being really stupid.

I think PMs as well.