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Jesuit priests in the 1700s

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  • Jesuit priests in the 1700s

    Hi. I wonder whether anyone has a little knowledge of the Jesuits? I've tried googling on this but haven't managed to unearth anything...

    There was a family of (at least) 5 sons in the Outer Hebrides, three of whom started training as priests at the Scottish College in Douai, France; two of them completed their training.

    One pile of sources imply that the sons were born c.1698 to c.1710.
    The Jesuit records say that the 3 sons who trained for the priesthood entered the college between 1732 and 1741, which to my mind doesn't sit well with being born 1698-1710.

    Does anyone know at what age it was customary to start such training?
    One source suggests that at least one of them was '15' when he enrolled. Do/did the Jesuits count age differently from us? Perhaps they only counted from confirmation

    Thanks for taking the time to read this!
    Kind regards,
    William
    Particular interests: The Cumming families of Edinkillie & Dallas, Moray

  • #2
    Wulliam

    I am no expert but I do know that Jesuit priests have a very long training period (8 - 15 years). Also, I thought, rightly or wrongly, that the Scottish college at Douai was for training priests generally and that Jesuit training was specific.

    On the other hand the information you have about the family may be garbled. Does it come from a reliable source? I had received information about a priest in my family which didn't add up and on investigation turned out to be two priests not one.

    OC

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    • #3
      Thanks OC,

      The Catholic records give very precise dates for the three brothers who started training. They also mention the parents and home location consistently.
      The other sources are local to home. One is a letter by one of the three brothers in his old age - he mentions the other two (without dates). Oral tradition from the Hebrides is also generally reliable.

      I think you're right about Douai, but they went on to train as Jesuits later.

      Hmmm...will have to keep looking.

      Thanks again!
      Kind regards,
      William
      Particular interests: The Cumming families of Edinkillie & Dallas, Moray

      Comment


      • #4
        You may need to look athe history of Jesuits very carefully because up until a certain time they were Totally banned from English Society, using the word English very conservatively. Up ub ntil a cerain date you had proest holes everywhere as they were chased and if captured hung drawn and quartered. I am insure what date they would have been free from persection but they were still being persecuted late 1600's so try to find the date they were allowed to practice once more as that may be your answer o waht appears to vbe late vocations. Also art the back of my mind I have the figure of 39 so is it possible that Jesuits would not be allowed to train under a certain age at this time. The Cathokic Reciord Society should be able to help you on that one.

        Janet

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        • #5
          Janet

          Scotland was far more tolerant to Catholic priests. The persecution of English priests had stopped by the early 1600s so I don't think that would have a bearing on this.

          Wulliam - I have been amazed at how accurate oral family history is in my research. I really would not have believed it could be, until I started researching, both English and Scottish lines. My Scottish grandmother gave her sons middle names which had family significance. One name had me beat until I found it was her 6 x great grandfather! She came from an uneducated background, so this name must have been passed down orally through the generations.

          OC

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          • #6
            I've already discovered that there were still martyrdoms up until 1680, though that didn't stop people joining.
            Thanks for the suggestion of the Catholic Record Society!..will drop them a line.
            Kind regards,
            William
            Particular interests: The Cumming families of Edinkillie & Dallas, Moray

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
              I have been amazed at how accurate oral family history is in my research. I really would not have believed it could be, until I started researching, both English and Scottish lines. My Scottish grandmother gave her sons middle names which had family significance. One name had me beat until I found it was her 6 x great grandfather! She came from an uneducated background, so this name must have been passed down orally through the generations.OC
              I don't think we give nearly enough credence to oral culture simply because we can't understand how it can be done; we definitely lost a skill when we started committing things to paper! My Dad's aunt (died 1997) knew her Hebridean ancestry back to c.1740 and knew the links between perhaps 400 individuals from within 2/3 local villages. It forms the back-bone of my research, and I've only ever found one error.
              Kind regards,
              William
              Particular interests: The Cumming families of Edinkillie & Dallas, Moray

              Comment


              • #8
                Sorry about the typo errors in my post above but also the age of 39 should have been 30, not 39!!

                Priests were certainly being Martyred late 1600/s, possibly early 1700's. One other point is that Jesuits were considered the most academic of priests and would have been well educated even before going into a seminary and so would have spent many years in their studies both before and after entering any Seminary.

                Janet

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oral history is fascinating and it is being lost even in places like Ireland which is steeped in oral history . I had many old Irish relatives who were eager to pass on their oral history to their English cousin and I spent hours writing down and making sense of when I went home but when I went back to clarify some important stories they had all died and the younger rlatives had no idea of the stories so I am left with some half finished brick wall which will never be found in Irish Records

                  Mind you the oral history can also be very frustrating when you only get half a story and wish they had written it down somewhere!

                  Janet
                  Last edited by Janet; 17-01-19, 21:53.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think the Hebrides has always been a Catholic stronghold so there wouldn't have been much to worry about, being so geographically remote. Do we know if they went back to the Hebrides to practise as priests or did they.minister elsewhere?

                    I am doing a village study where a lot of my ancestors lived in Lancashire. An oral historian, born in 1803, could not read or write but dictated the pedigrees of over 5000 people starting in 1680 and up to his death in the 1880s. I.was utterly astonished to find only a few small mistakes, mostly the first names of wives!

                    OC

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Gaelic society, as I understand it, depended on the seanachie, or clan story teller/ historian to pass on history from one generation to the next.
                      In Australia, scholars are now saying that Aboriginal oral historians have successfully transmitted eye witness accounts of climate change events that occurred 7,000 years ago
                      Distinctive ‘cross-checking’ tradition helps explain extraordinary accuracy in 21 stories about dramatic sea level rises between 7,000 and 18,000 years ago

                      Beverley



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks for all your thoughts including the correction of 39 to 30.
                        At the time we're talking of these men came from the only Catholic family in Lewis. The southern Hebrides (Barra & South Uist) are Catholic strongholds though. The brothers returned to be priests on the Scottish mainland - Strathglass & Braemar.

                        OC - that village study sounds absolutely fascinating...I hope you're aiming to have it published!
                        Kind regards,
                        William
                        Particular interests: The Cumming families of Edinkillie & Dallas, Moray

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Just one other thought on this as the Act of Union took place early 1700's is it possible that the Scottish Jesuit Records may have been included with the English ones? If that is a possibolity it may be worth contacting the Jesuit Archives in Farme Street London but I agree this is only a faint possibility. Also all Catholics at this time were recusants until the Catholic Emancipation Act so would have been subject to fines. The Catholic Record Society has lists of Recusants and other material. There was also a time in the late 1700's when Jesuits were not welcome anywhere in the UK so is that worth exploring?

                          Janet
                          Last edited by Janet; 19-01-19, 11:07.

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                          • #14
                            Thanks Janet - have contacted the Catholic Record Society for starters - will see what they say!
                            Kind regards,
                            William
                            Particular interests: The Cumming families of Edinkillie & Dallas, Moray

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