Name change, - how can I search?

[Darksecretz]

Holly, are you the same person that has made some comments on your grandfathers 1911 census return?

[Holly]

Yes, - years ago now. But a waste of time, as Ancestry take no notice of any comments, and don't correct records the way FMP do.

Holly.

[Darksecretz]

Yes, - years ago now. But a waste of time, as Ancestry take no notice of any comments, and don't correct records the way FMP do.

Holly.

ahhh I see. They won't automatically adjust the 'corrections' I did go in yesterday and alter the information on the transcription. Not that it helps you mind!

not sure if you have seen Lulamulas post about her grt grandad Edward Edwards........ a painter and decorator too that also doesn't appear anywhere before 1884! [and he was born c.1860 too!]

I reckon he'd bogged off to the pub with your grandad! ;)

[Holly]

Yes, her Grandparents married in 1936 though.

I don't think that there was any requirement to Register births until the 1870's? (I'm sure that someone on here will know the exact date). Until then, most people just had a Baptism or Christening. If my Grandfather was Baptised under a different Surname, - then looking for a 'William Born (Approx) 1860 is pretty hopeless really...

Holly:-(

[Darksecretz]

Yes, her Grandparents married in 1936 though.

I don't think that there was any requirement to Register births until the 1870's? (I'm sure that someone on here will know the exact date). Until then, most people just had a Baptism or Christening. If my Grandfather was Baptised under a different Surname, - then looking for a 'William Born (Approx) 1860 is pretty hopeless really...

Holly:-(

it was 1875 when the change came about...

never say never, some people on here have had mammoth tasks and eventually through blind stubbornness they have untangled what seemed impossible..

like you say he just doesn't appear which to me says he had a wife and possibly family, maybe someone 'out there' is also looking for their grandfather that seems to disappear after the 1891 census, the dead don't easily reveal their secrets, but sheer doggedness can sometimes be the one thing that allows the walls to come down.

don't give up

[I was looking for such a long time for my William Brown.... born in London in 1870... I simply had no idea and he vanished before the 1881 too] eventually though through careful rechecking and the help of our members I did eventually find his birth and death [aged 3 years]

[Holly]

Thanks for your thoughts Julie.

As you say, another family might be a possibility...

However, I do remember my late Uncle William Havelock Wilson telling me that he had stayed with his Father's, (William James Wilson's) family in Manchester as a boy. I didn't ask him for any names! But, - if he, (my Grandfather) did have another family in Manchester, would he have risked taking his Swansea family there?

Holly.

[Darksecretz]

not sure if you have been down this route or not but did any of the family leave any Wills? might it be that someone had left something to a favourite grand aunt/uncle or suchlike?

I haven't read the whole of the other threads about your search, as too much info sometimes confuses me. [sorry]

[Holly]

No, sadly I've found no Wilson Wills:-(

Apart that is from George Felix Wilson's (1900 - 1970). I also found Probate for Richard Wilson (1902 - 1957). (Both sons of W.J.Wilson).

William James Wilson can't have had anything to leave, as there's no Will and no Probate. He Died in Redhill Lodge, (later Hospital) Hendon on the 29th December 1937.

Holly.

[Darksecretz]

Thanks for your thoughts Julie.

As you say, another family might be a possibility...

However, I do remember my late Uncle William Havelock Wilson telling me that he had stayed with his Father's, (William James Wilson's) family in Manchester as a boy. I didn't ask him for any names! But, - if he, (my Grandfather) did have another family in Manchester, would he have risked taking his Swansea family there?

Holly.

do we know how/why the name Havelock is featured? do we know if it is a family name?

it could very well be that the James William Wilson family that you have in Manchester is the family you need, have you tracked this family back further to see if any names are reused? the reason I ask is that I have found the marriage cert of James Wilson & Elizabeth Wilson..

apologies if you have already done this line of work.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2967/40366_293744-01114?pid=748049&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3DManchesterMarriagesCathedral%26h%3D748049%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D8767&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true

[kylejustin]

Have you tried dna testing? Since he's a grandparent, you'd sure have luck with finding relatives.

[kylejustin]

My own third great grandfather was a similar situation to yours. He rocked up in 1858 leeds marrying as peter ford. Subsequently well documented until death. But couldn't find a birth.

I looked for "peter" born about 1835 in hawkesbury, gloucs in the 1851 census. I didn't see him, but did see a peter poole. I remembered he gave one of his sons the middle name of "poole".

Followed peter poole, turns out his father died, his mother remarried to a ford and a distant cousin tild me a story. Peter ran away from home as a teenager to join the army. Mum went to the barracks, and dragged him home. Later he ran away again, mum again went to the barracks and asked for "peter poole". She was told there was nobody by that name and went home empty handed. And he was ford ever since.....

Perhaps a similar situation for your grandfather?

[Holly]

Hi Julie,

On his (1893) Marriage Cert, William James Wilson gives his Father as 'William Wilson (Deceased) Occupation: Mason'.

I've tried checking out Wilsons, Occupation: Mason's in Manchester and thereabouts, - but nothing that fits.

I've also persued lots of James/James William Wilsons, and ordered lots of Birth Certs, but drawn a blank...

I have a theory that WJ Wilson's Mother was an Alice, - but again, haven't found a definate match.

Holly.

[Holly]

Have you tried dna testing? Since he's a grandparent, you'd sure have luck with finding relatives.

I haven't done the DNA test as yet... perhaps at Christmas?

However, as part of my Wilson research, I was able to make contact with 4 first cousins on that side of the family. One of them, (son of my late Uncle George Felix Wilson), did the Ancestry DNA test. That came back as:

Europe West
57%
Ireland/Scotland/Wales
32%
Scotland
Northeast & Central Scotland
Great Britain
8%
Wales & the West Midlands
South Wales

My cousin's Mother was a Scot, - most of the 3rd/4th Cousin matches were to Weir/Westwater relatives who had emmigrated to the USA/Canada, etc. There were no Wilsons listed...

I'm guessing that the 8% Wales and the West Midlands must come from our mutual Wilson Grandparents? But it's not very conclusive...

Holly.

[Holly]

My own third great grandfather was a similar situation to yours. He rocked up in 1858 leeds marrying as peter ford. Subsequently well documented until death. But couldn't find a birth.

I looked for "peter" born about 1835 in hawkesbury, gloucs in the 1851 census. I didn't see him, but did see a peter poole. I remembered he gave one of his sons the middle name of "poole".

Followed peter poole, turns out his father died, his mother remarried to a ford and a distant cousin tild me a story. Peter ran away from home as a teenager to join the army. Mum went to the barracks, and dragged him home. Later he ran away again, mum again went to the barracks and asked for "peter poole". She was told there was nobody by that name and went home empty handed. And he was ford ever since.....

Perhaps a similar situation for your grandfather?

Quite likely kylejustin, - but because my Father Died when I was 5, (and was 30yrs older than my Mother) there is no one still alive who could tell me any useful snippets like this...

Holly.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Have you chased up the witnesses at the marriage?
It took me over 20 years to confirm the origins of one of my ancestresses (turned out that her wedding day was the only documented occasion in her life when she used the surname she married under - her mother's maiden name, rather than her own birth surname or either of the names she was known as in two census returns ) Eventually the names of a witness confirmed kinship (witness and bride were aunt and niece) although that was difficult too as the aunt was married and therefore had a different surname to the bride's mother. Aunt had married pre 1837, so no details of her father, and at her marriage her birth surname had been spelt phonetically and so didn't show up in any of my searches. Many a headache during that very prolonged journey; oh and the groom had changed both his county of abode and his forename between census returns and his marriage. He was born in Norfolk and was named Luke, after his move to Yorkshire he was always known as James!

Jay

[Darksecretz]

hmmn...

maybe your grandad 'bigged up' his fathers occupation? on his marriage cert.

quite a few of my relatives actually transposed their names preferring their middle names over their fore and in once case I have someone being born with one name and dying without the middle name ever being acknowledged. and a Susanna Eleanor being buried as 'Ellen' [no mention whatsoever of Susanna!] the only thing that cinced it for me was the informant of death and the address where she died!..

[Holly]

Have you chased up the witnesses at the marriage?
It took me over 20 years to confirm the origins of one of my ancestresses (turned out that her wedding day was the only documented occasion in her life when she used the surname she married under - her mother's maiden name, rather than her own birth surname or either of the names she was known as in two census returns ) Eventually the names of a witness confirmed kinship (witness and bride were aunt and niece) although that was difficult too as the aunt was married and therefore had a different surname to the bride's mother. Aunt had married pre 1837, so no details of her father, and at her marriage her birth surname had been spelt phonetically and so didn't show up in any of my searches. Many a headache during that very prolonged journey; oh and the groom had changed both his county of abode and his forename between census returns and his marriage. He was born in Norfolk and was named Luke, after his move to Yorkshire he was always known as James!
Jay

Unfortunately Jay, - the Witnesses were Margaret Rees' Father, Evan Rees and sister, Selina Rees. (I still think that faced with his Wife's established Swansea family, my Grandfather invented a (Deceased) Father(!)

I also tried persuing the Banns for the Marriage; which was at The Parish Church Swansea, but they were destroyed in the Swansea Blitz, during WW2:-(

Holly.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

The banns wouldn't have been of any real help - less personal details than on the marriage registration.

Witnesses both belonging to the bride's family could possibly indicate that the groom had moved to Wales without any accompanying close family members. Sometimes the witnesses were best man and bridesmaid.

Jay

[Holly]

Many thanks for all the thoughts on this, - I greatly appreciate everyone's assistance.

I've been going through my (extensive) notes on William James Wilson, with a view to putting some of it on a spreadsheet, and this one jumped out at me:

1861 Census, Mary Wilson, 24yrs, Unmarried Cotton Winder, with Son William Wilson 1yr, both Born Manchester, living in Todmorden, Lance.
Piece 3237
Folio 75
Page 19

1871 Census, William Wilson, 11yrs. Pupil at The Bluecoat School, Newton with Scales. This was a Charity School, taking poor pupils. No way of knowing if it's the same boy, but a possibility?
Piece 4219
Folio 22
Page 4

I can't see him on the 1881 though...

Holly.

[kylejustin]

If you do the dna test, which i recommend, bear in mind you and your cousins will inherit different genes. So they might not match someone, but you could. Since the person concerned is a grandparent, you in theory will have better luck finding a connection than if this person was a fifth great grandparent you would try and prove descent from.

Even if you make no connection when you get the results, someone in future may match with you.

Also, you can view shared matches with anyone you match dna with. So you're cousins might not spot a possible connection, but any shared matches between you could be investigated more closely and you could work out a wilson vs rees match.