Pointers Please....

[Darksecretz]

I'm confused too. Why do we now think he is Edwin please?

Sorry Chris I was just batting ideas about! :smilee: and I'm having a right old time trying to find the non conformist bapts on Ancestry!

[Mary from Italy]

England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1970

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2972

[Darksecretz]

Ahhh thank you Mary :smilee: I hope you are well? it's been such a long while since I have done much in the way of searching.. things seem to have moved around a bit

[Mary from Italy]

Edward and Alice had 5 children (Alice Florence, Ethel Alice, Herbert Arthur, Ellen Jane and William) baptised together at St Jude's, Peckham in 1893.

His occupation is given as decorator.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1558/31280_196209-00224/2317267?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmabirths%26gsln%3dedwards%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d0%26msfng%3dedw*%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng%3dalice%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns_x%3d1%26hc%3d20%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26redir%3dfalse%26uidh%3dyc2&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=31280_196209-00224

[Darksecretz]

Hmmn well that idea fell on it's bottom! nothing much happening in non-cons... back to square one again.

[lulamula1]

Edward and Alice had 5 children (Alice Florence, Ethel Alice, Herbert Arthur, Ellen Jane and William) baptised together at St Jude's, Peckham in 1893.

His occupation is given as decorator.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...0_196209-00224

Hi Mary from Italy

This is the right family, they,
Edward and Alice Maria Edwards then went on to have Percy Leonard, Edith Constance, Dorothy, Winifred, Gertrude (my grandmother) and Grace Eleanor.

My internet is dropping in and out so I may not be able to get back on tonight.
Thank you for helping out, everyone has been so great on here.

[Katarzyna]

I have been looking at this on and off during last night and today and have come to the conclusion this man must have been married before hence his marriage in 1933. I think he changed his name and place of birth too to cover up. I cannot see a suitable Edward Edwards on 1861, 71 or 81 censuses born Chelmsford
I have found on 1881 a young man John Edwards age 20 b c 1861 Marylebone, a decorator, boarder and married, living Short Street off Carlisle St (Soho Sq) about a kilometer from where Alice was living in 1881 - Wigmore Street. Absolutely no way of proving any of this!!
1881

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?ti=5538&indiv=try&db=uki1881&h=13813997

I think this is him on 1861 but father is Henry not James.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&h=8479120&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7619

I cannot see him after 1881.

I live my life clutching at straws!!!

I wonder if the vicar misheard/copied butler for builder on the birth cert that you have.

[Guest]

could be this man then right year and month registration

Mother's Maiden Surname: Castle
Edwards, John James William
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in Marylebone Volume 01A Page 378

[Darksecretz]

I have been looking at this on and off during last night and today and have come to the conclusion this man must have been married before hence his marriage in 1933. I think he changed his name and place of birth too to cover up. I cannot see a suitable Edward Edwards on 1861, 71 or 81 censuses born Chelmsford
I have found on 1881 a young man John Edwards age 20 b c 1861 Marylebone, a decorator, boarder and married, living Short Street off Carlisle St (Soho Sq) about a kilometer from where Alice was living in 1881 - Wigmore Street. Absolutely no way of proving any of this!!
1881

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?ti=5538&indiv=try&db=uki1881&h=13813997

I think this is him on 1861 but father is Henry not James.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&h=8479120&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7619

I cannot see him after 1881.

I live my life clutching at straws!!!

I wonder if the vicar misheard/copied butler for builder on the birth cert that you have.

That was my conclusion too that he had a different name POB [possibly] and that Alice probably knew about 'wifey' too.

what we need is some chink in the armour to allow us to crack on and find Eddie boy.

[lulamula1]

Afternoon.
When I first started looking for the marriage of Alice and Edward I started checking dates prior to their first child being born and moved the search forward then forward again and again, until 1933.... seeing the wedding was the other side of town and sooooo long after they started their family I KNEW something was up!
The younger girls, Grace, Gertrude, Winifred and Dorothy as far as we know knew nothing of the date of their parents marriage, or certainly NEVER mentioned it to their families.
Through my research I am in contact with a granddaughter of the eldest son, Herbert Arthur and a great great granddaughter. Neither of them were aware of the date of the marriage either.

Julie we certainly need a chink in the armour......

My thoughts are now racing ahead and I am wondering IF Edward (if indeed this IS his name...) was married before, who was he married to and did they have a child/children......????

I love that you are all helping out as I was so stumped and didn't really know what to do next.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Katarzyna]

Do let us know the result of the b c for Herbert Arthur. It would be interesting to see if he was indeed a butler at that stage 2 years later.

[lulamula1]

Do let us know the result of the b c for Herbert Arthur. It would be interesting to see if he was indeed a butler at that stage 2 years later.

I shall do, the GRO estimates arrival Friday, so I shall have the weekend to check out the info.
Thanks for you help.

[Anne in Carlisle]

Just for your interest I know someone whose parents did exactly this. She and her siblings had no idea that their parents did not marry until 1975 when the children were adults (and some married themselves). The reason was the same as suggested here ...... father was still married to someone else! My pal did not find out until she started doing family history.
Anne

[lulamula1]

Just for your interest I know someone whose parents did exactly this. She and her siblings had no idea that their parents did not marry until 1975 when the children were adults (and some married themselves). The reason was the same as suggested here ...... father was still married to someone else! My pal did not find out until she started doing family history.
Anne

My mother, and her cousins, all in their 80's, are OK with the news, but were understandably surprised. Different generation. I am glad I didn't find this information out when their mother's were alive....it really would have shook them up, all church going, God fearing folk!

On the positive side, at least he apparently waited for the first wife to die before marrying my great grandmother and wasn't a bigamist! Now THAT news I wouldn't want to have to tell them.

[lulamula1]

Just received the birth certificate for the second born, Herbert Arthur, 5th September 1886, in Deptford. Father's occupation.......painter!

I think the line of thinking that his occupation for his first born was misheard as Butler, rather than Builder, could be plausible?

Another thought is that something happened, north of the river and they needed to move, so came south of the river, where they stayed until Edwards death.

Anyone want to offer up any other scenarios??

[lulamula1]

One other discovery today.

4th child, born 21st Oct 1890. On the birth certificate his name is recorded as Edward William Edwards, however his baptism record, 1891 and 1901 census have him as William Edward Edwards.

Is it worth looking for a William Edwards born Cheltenham for his father? Or did they just swapped names around so father and son wouldn't be confused?

Oh to have a time machine.

[Darksecretz]

Transposing names is often done or they drop one name totally.. so not unheard of.

my grandmother was given the middle name of my grandfathers surname, then my great grandparents married when my grandmother was 6 month old, she then 'dropped' her actual surname and used her middle name as her surname.. [and I didn't find that out until I started looking at my familys history]


where does Cheltenham come in to it?

[lulamula1]

Transposing names is often done or they drop one name totally.. so not unheard of.

my grandmother was given the middle name of my grandfathers surname, then my great grandparents married when my grandmother was 6 month old, she then 'dropped' her actual surname and used her middle name as her surname.. [and I didn't find that out until I started looking at my familys history]


where does Cheltenham come in to it?

Ha got my Chels mixed up. Sorry.

CHELMSFORD not Cheltenham! Ooops.

[Katarzyna]

Is the father's name on Herbert and William's birth certs just Edward Edwards - no middle name?

[lulamula1]

Is the father's name on Herbert and William's birth certs just Edward Edwards - no middle name?

Yes, on all 11 birth certificates he is just Edward Edwards.
His wife alternates between Alice Maria and Maria Alice, her BC is Maria Alice, but was always known as Alice....