Born "at sea" and the British East India Company

[justval249]

I would be really grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction. I have searched in as many places as I can think of and joined FBIS and I still seem to have hit a complete brick wall.

My paternal Great Grandmother was Estelle Crawford ( Stella) and was born "at sea" approx 1883 although I can't find more than a passing mention to it in the 1911 census return from the military out in India. I do know that she is part of the whole Crawford's in India through the East India Company but I am struggling to find what bit/branch.
When she married my Great Grandfather Robert Yates, her own father was just listed as FR Crawford. My Great Grandfather was serving with the military in India. My Grandfather and 2 of his siblings were born out in India. (Francis Thomas Victor and Mary Dorothy)

I took a punt on the FR being for Frederick Robert as I found another record of him being the father of another bride Lilian Grace and him being married to a lass called Amelia Phillips and thought I would pursue this avenue only because my Grandfather was named Robert Frederick Yates and he had 2 younger sisters born in the UK after WW1 that were named Grace Amelia and Lilian and family names may be repeating themselves. Another of the siblings born in India was named Francis which may have been after a potential brother of Stella's that I found in the records FRL Crawford.

Estelle's middle name in the 1911 census was listed as Phillip which I wondered may be because of her "mother's" maiden name with just an error on transcribing.

I lose all track of Estelle after about 1933 from the electoral records and she was going by the name Estell Miriam Yates by then. In the 1939 census, my Great Grandfather is listed as a widower. I can't even find her in the census records other than 1911.

I have trawled through as many East India records as I can find and took membership of FBIS, upgraded membership for everything to international records, tried to find if there are any recordings of births at sea and have only found that that brick wall is pretty chuffin high!

Please can anyone advise of any other records that may possibly hold this information where I can look?

Thank you in advance.

[Uncle John]

The East India Company may be a slight red herring for records about Estelle. The company was wound up in the late 1850s and its activities and assets transferred to the British Government. But FIBIS should still have relevant records, if they exist.

[justval249]

Thank you for your reply. I knew the East India Company had been took over, but the Crawford family were still very much influential in India after than and it was the "British Raj" as my Dad calls it. There still should be some record somewhere. As Estelle was "British by birth" and the area was controlled by the British Govt and Military, surely the census records would still be required to be filled in? I have found the one for 1911 but no others. I would expect her to at least appear somewhere between birth and 1902 when she married by Great Grandfather in Madras.
But I will keep looking. FBIS may yet turn up some clues.

[kylejustin]

have you tried military records?

[Guest]

when did she die?

[Guest]

Somebody on Ancestry has her in her tree
Father Francais Crawford born 1835 Paris, Mother Blanche Eliza Kennaway born 1842 Musoorie (Hemabegay), India

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/120174765/person/410198464418/facts

[Mary from Italy]

The timeline in that tree makes no sense at all, so I wouldn't think it's reliable (she was apparently buried in India on the same day as she died in England, and appears on a passenger list nearly 20 years later...)

[vera2013]

His Army records are on Ancestry. Nothing additional for Estella that I can see.

Vera

[vera2013]

His Army records are on Ancestry. Nothing additional for Estella that I can see.

Vera

Sorry. Missed a bit

Next of kin for Robert initially father which is crossed out.

Additional Wife (with husband crossed out)

C/0 what looks to be Mrs Draine, 5 Benson Street, Ipswich.

Looks like date added to the married roll 1904. ? Not in married quarters until then

Vera

[Guest]

I saw that after I posted, Mary didn't have time to edit.

[vera2013]

A Soldiers Will on FMP British India Office has info re

F R Crawford, Apothecary who died 29/01/1885 in Bombay

Widow Louisa Theresa Crawford
Children
Lionel Robert
Stella Mary
Lillian Grace

Vera

[Elaine]

An Amelia Crawford dies 1886 Bombay...admin granted 26 Jun 1885, joint auditers names listed only

Hope you don't mind me asking, I know you mentioned tracking to 1933 but have you discounted this one?

Stella M Yates death 1930 Battersea Sep Q age 48

[Elaine]

Don't know if this is anything but had a look at FBIS and found some refs which show up names I had come across...1846 birth for this Louisa

There is a Louisa Theresa Crawford marrying 1890 as widow on FMP, ref on family search

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGNR-BLT

Name: Ewen St.John O'Pearl Baillie
Birth Date: 1841
Age: 49
Spouse's Name: Louisa Theresa Crawford
Spouse's Birth Date: 1846
Spouse's Age: 44
Event Date: 29 Nov 1890
Event Place: Bellary, Madras, India
Father's Name: William Baille
Spouse's Father's Name: Henry Fox
Marital Status: Widowed
Spouse's Marital Status: Widowed

I had come across the Carvalho name looking for Louisa and

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGNX-374

Name: Emmanuel Carvalho
Birth Date: 1821
Age: 39
Spouse's Name: Louisa Teres Fox
Spouse's Birth Date: 1846
Spouse's Age: 14
Event Date: 02 Apr 1860
Event Place: Kurrachee, Bombay, India
Father's Name: Joachimantonia Carvalho
Spouse's Father's Name: Henry Fox
Marital Status: Widowed

[Elaine]

Ewan dies 23 Jan 1894, he's listed in the British India Office Wills & Probate FMP but just lists Theresa Louisa as widow.

The other ref from vera's find is

Crawford Frederick Robert — 1885 1891 British India Office Wills & Probate Bombay

proved 11 June 1891 to Louisa Crawford living at Belgaum

[Elaine]

Just found his will

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=BL/BIND/L-AG-34-40/20652

and looked at the Phillips marriage...there are Carvalho witnesses

Frederick ...Apothacary

[Elaine]

From that there is a George Phillips marrying Amelia Carvalho 1871, Amelia as widow when she marries to Crawford 1879

[Elaine]

I found a baptism for a child of Emmanuel and Louisa

Mabel Augusta 22 Aug 1870...would you believe Emmanuel is an Apothecary

Amelia who marries George has a daughter baptised Belgaum

British India Office Births & Baptisms
First name(s) Grace Ellen
Last name Phillips
Birth year 1878
Birth date 10 Sep 1878
Baptism year 1878
Baptism date 11 Aug 1878
Place Belgaum
Presidency Bombay
Father's first name(s) George
Father's last name Phillips
Mother's first name(s) Amelia

George deceased

Sorry I seem to be loading one by one but it's a bit of a puzzle and am a bit baffled!

[vera2013]

Great work Elaine. I see you are on a roll.
I'm following with interest
but 'I think I'll
have to read it again'!

Vera

[Elaine]

Sorry I'm an idiot, Amelia Phillips father is Emmanuel Caravelho, the marriage is transcribed twice as 1876 and 1879 and the latter shows the original

So
A Louisa Theresa Fox married Emmanuel Carvelho 1860
A Louisa Theresa is a widow for a Frederick Robert Crawford 1885
An Amelia Phillips...father Emmanuel Carvelho marries 5 Mar 1879 to a Frederick Robert Crawford who happens to be an apothecary

Went back to the will
The girls are to attend the Roman Catholic Convent
He appoints Charles Fox stepson as guardian...

[Elaine]

My heads in a spin vera!