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My elusive 4th great-grandfather

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  • My elusive 4th great-grandfather

    Hi folks.

    I'm new to the family tree research, and new to these forums. Just wanted to quickly say hi to everyone

    Now, I have a problem. My 4th great-grandfather. My elusive 4th great-grandfather. I've spent all of my waking hours this week (that isn't even an exaggeration, this has taken over me) trying to find out all the information I could about him. I started the tree on Sunday, with some help with my grandmother (we're both interested in doing the tree and have been working together when she has time).

    So we started off with Annie Campbell - my 2nd great-grandmother. She was married to Andrew Lourie Kerr. My gran is from the Campbell side, so we wanted to trace that line. Annie's mum and dad we found to be John Campbell and Annie Carson. John's mum and dad (after painstaking searching) we found to be John Campbell (I'll refer to him as Sr from hereon) and Elizabeth Radcliff/Lacey/Campbell (there were so many names, she nearly caused me to have a breakdown trying to find her).

    This is where we get stuck. John Sr. I'm going to rattle off all the information I know about him here. I'll link a visual copy of the tree at the end of the post. So John Sr had two children with Elizabeth - William, and John Jr. William served as a Private in WW1 as part of the Seaforth Highlanders. In his Military Records it is clearly stated that his mother and father's Christian names are John and Elizabeth. He also lists John Jr. as his next of kin. This is what confirmed my thoughts that these were the right people. From all the Census' I found that have John Sr. and Elizabeth, John Sr. is stated as being born in Ireland.

    And that's it. That's all the information I have on John Sr. He was born in Ireland and in the 1881-1901 Census' he lived in Kirkmichael with Elizabeth and their children. I've hit a massive brick wall. I don't know where to go from here. I can't find any birth records for him, or any death records for him (or Elizabeth for that matter). I can't even find a marriage record for them.

    Below are all the documents I have that pertain to John Sr. I'll try and lay it out neatly, or as neatly as the forum allows me.

    1901 Scotland Census -https://imgur.com/a/Gh44F3F
    John is listed as living with Elizabeth and William (note Elizabeth is listed as Campbell). He was born abt. 1824, and is aged 77. He was born in Ireland. He is a shoemaker of his own account, and lives in Kirkmichael.

    1891 Scotland Census - https://imgur.com/a/vpHmbmF (I didn't have enough credits to get the actual copy of the document, so I took the screenshot from FindMyPast)
    John is listed as living with Elizabeth, John Jr, and William. John Sr. is listed as being married, and Elizabeth is listed as Lacey rather than Campbell and also as a Widow. He was born abt. 1824, and is aged 71. He was born in Ireland. He is a shoemaker and lives in Kirkmichael.

    1881 Scotland Census - https://imgur.com/a/JXVQVIL
    John is listed as living with Elizabeth, John Jr, William, and Elizabeth Jr (this is one of her 3 children with former husband James Lacey). John Sr. was born abt. 1824, and is aged 57. He was born in Ireland. He is a shoemaker and lives in Kirkmichael.

    Here's where the story became interesting to me. The 1871 Census. In 1871 Elizabeth is recorded at the Mill Quarter Hospital in Dalmellington. She is with the nurse, her three children, and Margaret Logan, who is from Kirkmichael. Elizabeth Jr. was born in Dalmellington in 1869, and the '71 Census lists her as being 2 y.o. This all ties together nicely. Now, back to John.

    1871 Scotland Census - https://imgur.com/a/BvG5W01
    John is listed as a lodger. He's born abt. 1818, and is age 53. He was born in Ireland, and is also a shoemaker. I'm convinced it's the same man.

    So at some point between 1871 and 1881, John Campbell has met Elizabeth Lacey (m.s. Radcliffe). They've then moved to Kirkmichael and had John and William Campbell (both illegitimate births, so they weren't married). A reddit user on r/Genealogy pointed out to me that back then when a child was born out of wedlock, the mother lists herself as a a house keeper, to basically avoid a scandal because of an illegitimate child. Whether there's truth to this, I'm not sure, but she's listed as a house keeper in the Census'.

    William Campbell's birth register - https://imgur.com/a/fr6uUAO
    As you can see on the register, William was an illegitimate birth. His father is John Campbell whose profession is listed as a shoemaker. His mother is listed as Elizabeth Lacey (m.s. Radcliffe). They're from Kirkmichael.

    William Campbell's marriage register - https://imgur.com/a/R4bLfB5
    Marriage to Mary Lithgow. Father listed as John Campbell (shoemaker) and mother listed as Elizabeth Campbell (ms. Radcliffe).

    John Campbell Jr's birth register - https://imgur.com/a/9eKWYPy
    John was also an illegitimate birth. Father listed as John Campbell (shoemaker) and Elizabeth Lacey (ms. Radcliffe).

    John Campbell Jr's marriage register - https://imgur.com/a/9eKWYPy
    Marriage to Annie Austin Carson. Father listed as John Campbell (shoemaker) and Lizzie Campbell (ms. Radcliffe).

    There's two more documents I found that may or may not relate to John. The first is the 1861 Scotland Census (https://search.findmypast.co.uk/reco...861/0022793270). There's a John Campbell listed as a Boarder at a residence in Galston. Now, Galston is a while away from Dalmellington and Kirkmichael, but it's just outside of Kilmarnock, which is where John Jr and Annie Carson got married, so there's ties. Anyway, he's listed as age 40, being born in 1821. He's a coal miner and was born in Ireland. The dates are similar to the other Census' so it very well could be him. But the best piece of information from this Census is that it says Ireland, specifically from the county of Antrim.

    This ties in with the other document I found. Military Discharge records from 1843 for John Campbell, who was born in 1825 in Belfast, Antrim, Ireland. Whether these two are connected, and whether they connect to John Sr I'm not sure. This is why I need help. The only concrete information I have about John Sr is his children, his occupancy with Elizabeth Radcliffe/Lacey/Campbell, and that he was born in Ireland. I have no death information. However, tomorrow I'm going to Kirkmichael with a friend to visit the cemetary. John Jr. and Annie Carson both died in Kirkmichael, so I'm hoping their graves are there, are intact, and will provide SOME information that I haven't found.

    But in the meantime, if anybody can help provide any information, or if they can find out who the **** John Sr is, I'll love you forever!

    Also, sorry if this has been long-winded and difficult to read, I'm just trying to throw out all the information I have in any chance of receiving help. :D

  • #2
    John Campbell died in Kilmarnock
    From SPeople

    John Campbell, Shoemaker, Master married to Elizabeth
    Died 5th October 1906 at 1.20pm 64 ?Hare Street, Kilmarnock. Senile Decay, gradual.
    Married
    Aged 81
    Father John Campbell, Mason, Master, Dec
    No info given on Mother

    Informant William, Son

    Can't link image from this tablet.

    Vera
    Last edited by vera2013; 03-08-18, 02:55.

    Comment


    • #3
      SP Death record image John Campbell died 1906



      Vera

      Comment


      • #4
        Oh my god! Thank you! I didn't even think to look around Kilmarnock way!

        I'll take it as a learning experience, need to learn to widen my horizons rather than sticking to the one area! :D

        Comment


        • #5
          Using the info you had posted, I noted the Kilmarnock link and narrowed it down to dates from the 1901 census, alive, to John b 1824 being deceased by the time of William's marriage in 1915. Otherwise too many possible Campbell deaths.

          Believe John b 1824 d at Fore Street not Hare St.
          Possible father John Campbell b 1800 in that area 1841/51 with a child John but occupation not fitting.

          Not seeing a m for John b 1824 and Elizabeth. Wonder if Mr Lacey was perhaps not deceased but gone off? Need to check for a death.

          Vera.

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          • #6
            Ancestry is also returning a possible father for John (1824) as John Campbell, born 1800 in Dalrymple. That's the only information I got from it, but that doesn't explain John's (1824) birth in Ireland.

            I've tried searching the 1821 and 1831 censuses from Ireland and haven't been able to find a match there either.

            As for Mr Lacey I'm not sure about. I also can't find a marriage for Elizabeth and John, and narrowed it down to a 10-year space of when they could have been married, based on the name changes.

            Comment


            • #7
              Is it possible that John's father joined the British Army?

              We find many soldiers had children in Ireland, Malta, Gibraltar, India, etc etc etc
              My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

              Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

              Comment


              • #8
                The thought had crossed my mind. Considering John's death certificate has no mother listed could make this a possibility. I've yet to come across a record that looks like it could fit the bill but I'm still searching.

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                • #9
                  Have been looking at a John Campbell b 1791 Ireland, Master Mason living Girvin, Ayrshire 1841-1871.

                  A tree on Ancestry has his death and that of wife Elizabeth nee Irvine. Informant for deaths John Campbell, Widower ? Son although can't see him on census.

                  The tree has children, including a John. The
                  children being b in Ireland and Stranraer but no birth info for John

                  Vera
                  Last edited by vera2013; 04-08-18, 01:13.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I found the tree on Ancestry Vera. It looks promising. Thank you!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      EDIT: After viewing the tree it shows that John was born in 1790 in Ireland, and that his son, John, was born in Ireland too, however that John is listed as dying in Girvan, rather than Kilmarnock like what was noted on the record.

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                      • #12
                        So many Johns! Which one died in Girvan father b 1791 or son John informant.

                        However, dont think they are your Campbells. On the tree I looked at, a John Campbell was informant for parents' and brother's deaths. His signature on the death record doesn't match that of the one on the birth record of
                        John and William.

                        Strange that William knew his grandfather was a Master Mason but didn't
                        know anything about his grandmother.

                        Vera

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Haha tell me about it! Now onto 4 John's in a row! The one that died in Girvan would have been John informant.

                          Yeah that's what concerns me. William knows his grandfather was a Master Mason but knows nothing about his grandmother. So either John knew who his mother was, but never spoke about her, or he had never met his mother (maybe William's grandfather was in the military, ended up in Ireland, had a fling with an Irish gal and thus John was born. Maybe this Irish gal knew she couldn't keep the child, but knew the father's information, or at least enough to be able to find John and give him the child. Maybe John (b 1790~) never spoke about the woman with his son, so he never knew about her, thus couldn't tell William anything about her). Pure speculation. But in that case, surely it would count as a military birth? However there's none on record that looks like they could match.

                          At this rate I'm going to need to change the thread title to "My elusive 4th AND 5th great-grandfathers!"

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                          • #14
                            Can't see a serving Soldier way back then being able to look after a child or willing to.
                            Maybe John Snr b 1824 didn't know his parents and William made up the information for the death record. He only had to repeat his father's name. Maybe unaware at the time he would have to give info on his grandmother.

                            Lots of maybes

                            If only there was a marriage cert to confirm or otherwise William's info.


                            Vera
                            Last edited by vera2013; 04-08-18, 18:42.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I suppose. Unless John Snr (1790) was in the military and finished service before John Jr was born, or became a deserter and left before John Jr was born. Like you say, so many maybes. William making up the information could be plausible, but I've seen death certificates on other branches of the tree that have unknowns for both mother and father. Unless William didn't want to do that.

                              I'll spend some more time digging for a marriage certificate between John Sr and whoever else. Knowing that he's a Mason then surely I should be able to narrow it down. Hopefully there's a census or something that I've missed.

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                              • #16
                                I too have seen gaps in info on death records on SP but usually only missing mother's maiden name

                                I doubt they married. I can't even see a marriage for Elizabeth to a Lacey.

                                FMP lets you search using occupation but not sure if it's for all the census.

                                You have yourself with grandmother's
                                help gathered lots of info, so lots to work on to hopefully give a result on your John Campbell Snr b 1824 Ireland.

                                Vera

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Yeah, Elizabeth is definitely a mystery. No records of either marriage.

                                  I'm going to set aside a day and just go to town with the searching, see if I can get something.

                                  Thank you very much for your help!:o

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Good luck. As we say on the forum, you just need that little snippet of info

                                    Vera

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