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Mary Ann Elizabeth Healey c.1880

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  • Mary Ann Elizabeth Healey c.1880

    Researching my great-grandmother, MARY ANN ELIZABETH HEALEY. Not sure of her exact place/date of birth but it would be around 1880, probably in Rotherhithe. She married my great-grandfather GEORGE FREDERICK BISHOP on 8th May 1898 and her place of residence was 16 Elephant Lane. The MC shows her father as JOHN HEALEY, lighterman. Witnesses to the wedding were WILLIAM EDWARD BISHOP (groom's brother) and HANNAH MCCARTHY.


    I have found Mary Ann in both the 1911 and 1901 censuses where birthplace is listed as East End and Rotherhithe respectively. Both censuses suggest birth year of 1880. However, I've been unable to find her in 1891 and 1881 censuses, before her marriage to George. I have found a possible match in 1891 living in Nelson Street with mother (MARY ANN HEALEY) and father (JOHN HEALEY) but her age (13) would suggest birthdate of 1887/8. There is also a HANNAH HEALEY (aged 9) on this record and I did toy with the idea that the HANNAH MCCARTHY, witness on her MC, could've been her married sister, but this would mean her sister was married at around 16. I also can't find any record of a HANNAH HEALEY marrying a MCCARTHY around that time, so I think I'm barking up the wrong tree here.


    Would really like to fill in these gaps in my records and so would be grateful if anyone has any information to add. Thanks.

  • #2
    Hello and welcome to the forum chantilly

    Just having a look and 1881, following the occupation and

    Phillip Street

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    John Healey 29 London City Of, Middlesex
    Mary Ann Healey 24 St Georges E, Middlesex
    John F Healey 7 St Georges E, Middlesex
    Michel H Healey 4 St Georges E, Middlesex
    Mary Ann E Healey 1 St Georges E, Middlesex, England
    John Griffiths...boarder

    GRO births

    HEALEY, JOHN FREDERICK MMN CANNON
    GRO Reference: 1872 S Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST Volume 01C Page 399

    HEALEY, MICHAEL HENRY CANNON
    GRO Reference: 1876 S Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST Volume 01C Page 387


    There's a baptism for Mary Elizabeth, address as Phillip Street



    which has a birth date of Feb 27 1880

    HEALEY, MARY ANN ELIZABETH CANNON
    GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in ST GEORGE IN THE EAST Volume 01C Page 393

    Just having a look at Hannah and marriages, hoping this is a start
    Last edited by Elaine; 17-07-18, 22:34.
    Elaine

    Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

    http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
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    • #3
      I have found the same as Elaine.

      Marriage June 1871 Whitechapel John Healey to Mary Ann Cannon.

      Other children

      Clara Maria 1874
      Maria Emily 1878


      OC

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      • #4
        1901 John, Mary Ann and Hannah...so not married

        Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.


        The only birth St George in the East as it happens is a Hannah Griffiths 1885 MMN Cannon

        John Healey marriage is online, father Michael Healey

        Last edited by Elaine; 17-07-18, 23:02.
        Elaine

        Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

        http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
        http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

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        • #5
          Ooh, Elaine, the boarder's name was Griffiths!

          OC

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          • #6
            Well went right over my head:D
            Elaine

            Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

            http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
            http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

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            • #7
              Better put his details in then!

              John Griffiths Boarder 35 Shadwell, Middlesex
              Elaine

              Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

              http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
              http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

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              • #8
                Some bits for tomorrow

                Clara Maria dies 1875
                Maria Emily dies 1879

                Michael marries Elizabeth Jane Hobbs 1896

                Elaine

                Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

                http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
                http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you all for the help here. However, I am still a bit confused.


                  Whilst I agree that this Mary Ann Healey fits the bill as far as father's name and occupation etc goes, the MC states that Mary was 21 at the time of her marriage in 1898 which would make her birth year c1877 although I'm well aware that people used to lie about their age for one reason or another. Age on 1901 and 1911 censuses seem to confirm 1880 birth.


                  I've found another two possible matches for Mary in the 1891 census:


                  John Healey (head), 39, fellowship porter b.Bermondsey
                  Mary Ann Healey (wife), 38, fur cutter, b.Bermondsey
                  Mary Healey (dau), 13, b.St Olave *would make birthyear c.1878
                  Hannah Healey (dau), 9, b.St Georges *if this is the Hannah, witness at Mary's marriage, then it would make her aged 16 and married at time of Mary's wedding


                  Julia Ragan (head - widow), 60, b.Bermondsey
                  Michel Ragan (son),21, b. Bermondsey
                  Margaret Healey (dau),48, b. Bermondsey
                  Mary Healey (dau),15, b. Bermondsey *birthyear c.1876, maybe a bit too early
                  Hannah Healey (dau) 10, b. Bermondsey
                  (not sure of relationships here as no John Healey present, but maybe John was away/died and his wife Margaret and family were living with her mother). I have looked for a John Healey/Margaret Ragan marriage but haven't found one.


                  My problem is how can I pin down which Mary is the right one? Can't really go by birth location as on the 1901 and 1911 censuses it is listed as Rotherhithe and and East End but choice of St George in the East or Bermondsey for 1881 and 1891 censuses.

                  Thanks.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Chantilly

                    But there is only one Mary Anne Elizabeth who fits and that is the one born in 1880. The St Olave one is just Mary.

                    OC

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                      But there is only one Mary Anne Elizabeth who fits and that is the one born in 1880. The St Olave one is just Mary.
                      Yes, I do agree that that is the most likely. But I'm just concerned about the age on the marriage certificate implying her birthdate was c1897 and not 1880. I am also aware that names on censuses aren't always given in full so didn't want to completely rule out any other Mary's or Mary Anns. I'm not sure at that time how old you had to be to get married without parental permission. If she didn't have this permission, this would be a strong reason to lie about her age.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        She is Mary Ann Elizabeth on her marriage certificate which matches the 1880 birth. Remember that census information is second or third hand, apart from 1911 which was filled in by the householder and it is that which we see.

                        I don't take much notice of "21" on a marriage cert! It may have been that she didn't have her father's permission or it may just have been to save annoying bureaucracy . My mother married at 16 and forged her father's signature with his full knowledge and approval because he could not read and write!

                        If this were my search, I would get that 1880 birth certificate and see if the address gets you anywhere.

                        OC

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                        • #13
                          1939 she is back to her birthdate on her baptism. Have had the same with one of my rellies which at first put the marriage in doubt but looking at family records, mine being an army payment by her brother, proved that it was absolutely the right one. Am with OC in what has been explained, much easier to say you are 21.
                          Elaine

                          Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

                          http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
                          http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Elaine View Post
                            Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.


                            John Healey 29 London City Of, Middlesex
                            Mary Ann Healey 24 St Georges E, Middlesex
                            John F Healey 7 St Georges E, Middlesex
                            Michel H Healey 4 St Georges E, Middlesex
                            Mary Ann E Healey 1 St Georges E, Middlesex, England
                            John Griffiths...boarder
                            Have been doing a bit of digging around and found something very interesting.

                            I found a Marriage record of a MARY ANN ELIZABETH HEALEY (my Mary's mother) and JOHN GRIFFITHS in 1990. (1c 727) (John Griffith being her lodger in 1881)

                            Also found them in the 1901 Census, 56 Tarley Street, St George in the East
                            John Griffiths, Head, Age 54, b.1847 in Whitechapel, Middx, occupation watchman
                            Mary Ann Griffiths, Wife, Age 46, b.1855 in St George, London, occupation umbrella maker
                            with
                            James Griffiths, son, age 18
                            Thomas Griffiths, son age 17
                            May Griffiths, dau age 13
                            Alfred Griffiths, son, age 8

                            I then did a bit of research on the children and found James' full name was James George Cannon Griffiths (Cannon being Mary Ann's maiden name before Healey). Further research revealed James' baptismal certificate which notes:
                            "Father: John Griffiths
                            Mother: Mary Ann Cannon
                            * Mary Ann Cannon, a married woman, husband still alive but separated from him."

                            Trying not to let my imagination run away with me, but I can only think that Mary Ann had an affair with the lodger, later having four children with him. Meanwhile, John Healey disappears off the radar and I can only assume he died before 1890 which enabled George and Mary to be able to marry.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by chantilly View Post
                              Trying not to let my imagination run away with me, but I can only think that Mary Ann had an affair with the lodger, later having four children with him. Meanwhile, John Healey disappears off the radar and I can only assume he died before 1890 which enabled George and Mary to be able to marry.
                              Sorry to quote my own message, but I don't seem to be able to edit. I just realised that John Healey couldn't have died before the Mary Ann and John Griffiths got married as John Healey was present at his daughter's wedding in 1898. Can't find any record of a divorce though.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                My G G Grandmother was married and had a child then husband seemed to vanish. She then had a lodger and had 4 children with the lodger in 1870's. She eventually married the lodger in 1900, 2 years after her eldest daughter had married.

                                Looked everywhere to find anything about her first husband, was then contacted by a relative of his who had traced him to Manchester and Scotland. We eventually found his death in 1922!!.
                                Lin

                                Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

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                                • #17
                                  Divorce was too expensive and very difficult to obtain so many couples went their separate ways and committed bigamy. Be interesting to get the marriage cert though, to see what status she gives at the second "marriage".

                                  OC

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by chantilly View Post
                                    Sorry to quote my own message, but I don't seem to be able to edit. I just realised that John Healey couldn't have died before the Mary Ann and John Griffiths got married as John Healey was present at his daughter's wedding in 1898. Can't find any record of a divorce though.
                                    It depends on how the daughter was questioned - "Who was your father?" She could have given his name without saying he was deceased.
                                    Kat

                                    My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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                                    • #19
                                      Do you think this could be John Healey, Mary Ann Elizabeth's father 1891 boarding in the Drake household?

                                      Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.
                                      Last edited by Elaine; 20-07-18, 22:46.
                                      Elaine

                                      Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

                                      http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
                                      http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Looked at Lighterman records

                                        Thames Watermen & Lightermen 1688-2010
                                        First name(s) Michael Henry
                                        Last name Healey
                                        Place St George in the East
                                        Year 1891
                                        Bound date 11 Aug 1891
                                        Date free 1897 Sep 14
                                        Master's first name(s) Henry Thomas
                                        Master's last name Cannon
                                        Where from notes St George in the East
                                        Elaine

                                        Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

                                        http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
                                        http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

                                        Comment

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