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Help!!! Cordwainer mystery?

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  • Help!!! Cordwainer mystery?

    Hi there, i'm new to the forum so please excuse any mistakes.
    Me and my grandfather have been trying to smash through the brick wall we have encountered for a solid year now to no avail so i was wandering if any one could help us?

    We are trying to uncover the story of my fourth great grandfather Patrick Sullivan who at the moment, is a complete mystery. The only info i have on Patrick is whats on his son John Sullivan's marriage certificate in 1860.

    John Sullivan born circa 1840-1 married Catherine Lyons born circa 1841-2 in 1860 in Merthyr Tydfil Wales. Just to point out Catherine's father Thomas Lyons is also causing the same problem as he to was deceased at the time and we cannot find him anywhere either.

    On this certificate it states Patrick Sullivan was a cordwainer and was deceased at the time of the marriage. We have scoured census records in both Wales and Ireland and we just cant find him anywhere.
    we are both stumped and we don't know what we can do to try and find him.

    Just in case anyone has a look for us, John Sullivan changes his mind on census records as to where he is from, one minuet he was born in Ireland the next in wales so i assume he was born in Ireland as it seems odd to put down the unfavourable country at the time if he was indeed Welsh. So our assumption is John was born in Ireland and possibly Patrick died over there?

    Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
    Kindest regards
    Lew.

  • #2
    I've not had a look at anything yet but it has been known that a deceased father on a marriage cert is a 'missing father'.

    Who is John living with in 1841 and 1851 census, that would help us to start looking.

    Also welcome to the forum.
    Lin

    Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi there I have no idea where he is before 1861 as I've been looking and can't find him with a Patrick.

      In 1861 i think John is living with his wife Catherine at 2 Shepards row in Merthyr Tydfil along with his brother Daniel who is 12 and son Denis who is 4 months old but Denis died 1861.

      Any help is greatly appreciated.
      Regards
      Lew.

      Comment


      • #4
        Here is the possible image for the census reference Lew has given.


        Last household on the page, although the surname is not easy to decipher and has been transcribed as William. Note there is another John Sullivan/William with son Dennis living next door. There are several John Sullivans of a similar age in Merthyr in 1861 census. However the new GRO birth index only has one 1861 Denis Sullivan birth with mmn Lyons, birth registered in Jan to Mar qtr.
        Brother Daniel is recorded at no 3, but on the next image.

        Jay
        Janet in Yorkshire



        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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        • #5
          What addresses were given on the marriage cert and who were the two witnesses? Did the marriage take place at a church, chapel or registrar's office?

          Jay
          Janet in Yorkshire



          Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

          Comment


          • #6
            A deceased father on a marriage certificate may be a missing father ..... ie, he left the family and no-one knows where he is OR the child was illegitimate and never knew his father. The name in that case may be plucked out of the air, that of a known person but not the father, or a combination of names.
            My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

            Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

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            • #7
              Birth Registered as a FEMALE????
              SULLIVAN, DANIEL mmn LYONS
              GRO Reference: 1864 Dec Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 329

              Death for Catherine??
              SULLIVAN, CATHERINE 45
              GRO Reference: 1865 Jun Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 266
              Last edited by Katarzyna; 09-06-18, 23:13.
              Kat

              My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

              Comment


              • #8
                Which one of John and Catherine's children is your 2nd great grandparent and which censuses after 1861 do you have them on? It would be interesting to see those to check we are looking at the right John and Catherine as there are several in that area.
                Kat

                My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                  Which one of John and Catherine's children is your 2nd great grandparent and which censuses after 1861 do you have them on? It would be interesting to see those to check we are looking at the right John and Catherine as there are several in that area.
                  I agree with you , Kat. There are several John Sullivans of a similar age (and more than one Catherine Sullivan) in Merthyr in the 1861 census. So, it would be useful for us to start later than 1861 and to then work our way back in time.

                  Jay
                  Janet in Yorkshire



                  Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi there thanks for the responses,
                    My second great grandfather is Edward Sullivan born 1880 in mountain ash.
                    Edward appears on the 1880 census in Napier street Merthyr tydfil. I also have his both certificate to certify this.

                    John and Catherine also appear in Napier street in the 1871 census.

                    On John and Catherines marriage cert it states John as living in Georgetown Merthyr
                    And Catherine in Caedraw Merthyr.

                    Both parents listed as deceased and occupations:
                    Patrick Sullivan- Cordwainer.
                    Thomas Lyons- Butcher.

                    Regards Lew.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Also, witness were a Mary whelan and a David Norbury.
                      Registrar Morgan Williams.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        They did have a son called Daniel he appears on 1871 census.

                        Catherine However, appears on the 1871 census also so it can't be her death certificate.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Was John and Catherine' marriage a Catholic one?
                          Kat

                          My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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                          • #14
                            Yes it was. My grandfather has the cert so ill ask him to send me the details of the church and area they were married in.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I suspect that John and his brother Daniel came over from Ireland to Wales during 1850's as Daniel was born Ireland 1849.
                              Not knowing if they came from the North or South OR county makes it nigh on impossible to pin point a baptism. As you know not all the counties are available online yet and if it's N Ireland you would need to visit PRONI.
                              You have probably seen all these:

                              JOHN SULLIVAN of ARDS- KERRY (RC) - KILGARVAN
                              Date of Birth 16 June 1841 Parents Patrick and Margaret Sullivan

                              Baptism of JOHN SULLIVAN of KNOCKANECORE on 1 September 1839 KERRY (RC) - KILCUMMIN
                              Parents Patrick Sullivan and Mary Coote

                              Baptism of JOHN SULLIVAN of DERINEE on 4 November 1838 KERRY (RC)- ADRIGOLE
                              Parents Patrick Sullivan and Mary Abbot

                              Baptism of JOHN SULLIVAN of INISFEA on 9 July 1838 KERRY (RC) - KENMARE
                              Parents Patrick Sullivan and Mary Brien

                              Life for genealogists would be much easier if mother's maiden names had been added to marriage certs.

                              Another problem is that father's occupation for these baptisms is not recorded.
                              Last edited by Katarzyna; 10-06-18, 12:30.
                              Kat

                              My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I assume they were from southern Ireland as Sullivan originates from the south especially cork and Kerry. My grandfather also had his DNA tested and got dna grouped with that found most commonly in cork. However I am aware this could be from other branches of the family.

                                Thanks for the replies.
                                Lew.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Also any help with finding Thomas Lyons would be greatly appreciated as we are having the same issue with him.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Searched through Co Cork and Kerry and cannot see Daniel and John baptisms with same parents. Dublin has 1 x Daniel but no Johns.You can check them out at https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/ but surely you have searched there????
                                    Kat

                                    My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I think this is the 1871 census for Napier St, Mountain Ash, that Lew referred to. (Catherine and children on the next sheet)
                                      And 1881


                                      Although there is a town named Merthyr Tydfil, the Merthyr in this case seems to be the parliamentary constituency, of which the town of Merthyr was just a part. It seems that the Sullivan family actually lived in Pontypridd, to the south and further down the Rhonnda valley. Mountain Ash is another settlement in this area of Wales.
                                      http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x...dda+Cynon+Taf+[City/Town/Village]&searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf
                                      I had quite a job locating the family in census, as I was not entering the "correct" placename in the data searchbox!

                                      Lyons is also a good old Irish surname. My friend's mother is descended from a Lyons family, of County Limerick.

                                      Jay
                                      Janet in Yorkshire



                                      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                                      • #20
                                        In my experience, many of the Irish were economical with the truth, both with regards to year of birth and also place of origin.
                                        This also seems to have applied to some of the parish priests, when recording baptisms. One in particular recorded that the parents of the child concerned were married, and recorded the maiden name of the mother. However, he never recorded any details of the marriage and I have never been able to find GRO registrations for several of these couples of Irish descent. The church records for this parish are not on line so I can't search for any RC marriages; whilst these marriages may have been very important to and recognised by the RC church, if the registrar did not witness and record them, then the marriage was not legally recognised. I now believe this situation may have been what led to some registrar conducted marriages of couples of a mature age - once the state pension had been introduced in the early 1900's, couples needed to produce evidence of marriage so that the husband could draw an allowance for a couple and so that, in the event of his death, his widow could also receive a pension. Suddenly, documentation and legality (as opposed to perceived "morality") mattered.

                                        Jay
                                        Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 10-06-18, 15:26.
                                        Janet in Yorkshire



                                        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                        Comment

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