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Help!!! Cordwainer mystery?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Lewissullivan View Post
    Seems worth a shot, however i only have the family after1861 and Patrick was dead according to the marriage certifacte by 1860. So if he is not registered as buried in the church John got married in how then would you go about searching the burial records?
    I see in post 14 you said John & Catherine were married in an RC church. Do you have the name of the church and of the parish it served? (ETA -our posts clashed, I see you've now posted the name of the church.) If you have searched the burial register of this church, how far back did the records go?
    The registers of the two RC churches my Irish lot used only go back to the late 1850's, early 1860's, which is when the parishes were created and the churches were built. So, to search for a RC burial before that time, which was recorded in a parish register, I've had to try and locate RC parishes in the city before that time. Unfortunately for me, the records of these are not yet available online and I will need to investigate which of three possible locations house the records, IF they have survived, and what dates are covered. If I feel that they may hold a clue, then I will have to book a holiday in that area and visit the relevant record office. Or, hire a researcher to act as my eyes, which would probably work out cheaper than paying for travel and accommodation.
    The RC baptism records I've viewed online are not particularly helpful - date of bp (and sometimes of birth) names of parents and usually birth surname of mother, names of the two godparents (one male, one female) but no occupation of father and no specific address.
    With regards to marriages, I haven't been able to view the images for any of these online, only transcripts of a few events, which do not include specific sources.
    I was able to view images of a couple of burial registers via familysearch.org.

    The documented responses of the Irish are often unreliable. I used the British newspaper site as part of my investigation - the dates of court appearances, accidents etc sometimes give clues.

    Jay
    Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 11-06-18, 13:46.
    Janet in Yorkshire



    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

    Comment


    • #42
      If you go to the archives, they will have all sorts of things to help you fill in the background of your family. Perhaps maps, showing where they lived, illustrations/postcards etc giving you an idea of what it was like in the place where they lived. Probably information on the mines, steel works to tell you more about their working lives. Probably microfilm/fiche of local census and parish records, information about local cemeteries etc - and the staff will be able to tell you what other information is available and where to look.

      Jay
      Janet in Yorkshire



      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

      Comment


      • #43
        We will definitely have to take a trip. In the meantime I'm going to try and find the Lyons as there isn't many of them around.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
          That looks good Elaine.
          There is also a Patrick bap 1846 and a Julia 1840. None of them have occupations for the father though.
          That first link only takes you to the Search boxes and I only get the 5 results on my search using your criteria.
          I haven't checked out the nli.ie site yet - my eyes not too good tonight.

          edit
          Marriage of PATRICK SULLIVAN of KILGARVAN and MARY HARRINGTON of NR (not recorded?)
          on 24 November 1836
          Witness 1 JEREMIAH SULLIVAN
          Witness 2 JOHN SULLIVAN
          No parents or Occupations recorded
          where did you find these records ?

          Comment


          • #45
            Just catching up!

            I logged in to the church records here for the ref.

            This Irish Government supported, official web site, is dedicated to helping you in your search for records of family history for past generations.


            the records are here for Kilgarven

            This website contains images from the NLI’s collection of Catholic parish register microfilms. The registers contain records of baptisms and marriages from the majority of Catholic parishes in Ireland and Northern Ireland up to 1880.


            only marriages and baptisms
            Attached Files
            Elaine

            Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

            http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
            http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

            Comment


            • #46
              Here are the other 8 records, parents Patrick Sullivan and Mary Harrington

              Baptism of JULIA SULLIVAN of KILGARVAN
              on 14 July 1840

              Baptism of PATRICK SULLIVAN of CREGGEEN
              on 4 November 1846

              Baptism of DANIEL SULLIVAN of CAHIR
              on 7 January 1849

              Baptism of MARY SULLIVAN of CAHIR
              on 26 February 1852

              Baptism of CATHERINE SULLIVAN of CAHIR
              on 7 May 1854

              This is the one mentioned by Kat

              Baptism of MARY MURNANE of ARDS
              on 1 May 1837
              Elaine

              Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

              http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
              http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

              Comment


              • #47
                Sorry to throw a bit of a dampener on this, but unless I have missed something upthread, I am not clear why various posters are focusing on Cork as birthplace for John Sullivan. As far as I can tell, John unhelpfully never said exactly where in Ireland he was born.

                You can search the NLI Catholic baptisms for free on findmypast. As this covers all 32 counties of the island of Ireland up to circa 1880, I am sure there will be scores, if not hundreds, of John Sullivans with a father named Patrick. As we do not have even a first name for John's mother, that's a mighty big haystack to go through.

                I haven't been able to find any likely candidates for John or Catherine in the 1851 census.
                So all I can suggest is going through census records for John's known siblings and seeing if they are any more helpful as to where exactly they were born...

                Christine

                Postscript:

                FMP - 41 results when searching for John Sullivan born 1841 + or - 2 years with father's name Patrick (and variants):
                Last edited by Karamazov; 11-06-18, 21:32.
                Researching:
                HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

                Comment


                • #48
                  Not at all a dampner, just looking as you suggested, trying to get a handle on John.

                  Am dwelling in 1861 with the 2 Sullivan families together, where is John 1871?
                  Last edited by Elaine; 11-06-18, 21:38.
                  Elaine

                  Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

                  http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
                  http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    1871:at Mountain Ash, Glamorgan


                    John Sullivan 21 the age is way out , difficult to read Johns
                    Catherine Sullivan 26
                    Mary Sullivan 8
                    Daniel Sullivan 5
                    John Sullivan 4
                    Thomas Sullivan 2

                    1881: at Llanwonno , Glamorgan

                    John Sullivan 40
                    Catherine Sullivan 35
                    Mary Sullivan 17
                    Daniel Sullivan 16
                    John Sullivan 14
                    Thomas Sullivan 12
                    Jeremiah Sullivan 9
                    Edward Sullivan 1
                    Last edited by Katarzyna; 11-06-18, 22:01.
                    Kat

                    My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Thanks Kat
                      Elaine

                      Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

                      http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
                      http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                        1871:at Mountain Ash, Glamorgan


                        John Sullivan 21 the age is way out , difficult to read Johns
                        Catherine Sullivan 26
                        Mary Sullivan 8
                        Daniel Sullivan 5
                        John Sullivan 4
                        Thomas Sullivan 2

                        1881: at Llanwonno , Glamorgan

                        John Sullivan 40
                        Catherine Sullivan 35
                        Mary Sullivan 17
                        Daniel Sullivan 16
                        John Sullivan 14
                        Thomas Sullivan 12
                        Jeremiah Sullivan 9
                        Edward Sullivan 1
                        Yeah that's one thing me and my grandad always noted was how more so Catherines age jumps around significantly . However, I know it's deffinately them in Napier street as it's where Edward my 2nd great grandfather was born.

                        As for Mary Harrington the names of her children do reoccur throughout the family so it is a possible link but I think it'll be hard to prove.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          From first post " John Sullivan born circa 1840-1 married Catherine Lyons born circa 1841-2 in 1860 in Merthyr Tydfil Wales"
                          On the 1861 census both give their age as 20.
                          What does it actually say on the marriage cert re their ages? It should say their - actual age, being of full age (ie 21 or over) or minor. Were they married by banns or licence?
                          Kat

                          My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Lew, you might like to see if your local library has any of these publications available for you to look through:



                            If necessary, put Dowlais in the search box and then scroll down - I see the Glamorgan family history society have transcribed RC baptism & marriage records. Some of the other publications could also have useful information for you.

                            You might like to see what the society have published for other places of interest to you. Again, I'm suggesting that you see if any of your local libraries have copies of these in their local studies section, or can get them for you via the library loan service, or find out for you which main libraries in your area do have copies.

                            Jay
                            Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 12-06-18, 12:46.
                            Janet in Yorkshire



                            Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              On the certificate John is 20 and Catherine is 18.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Welsh newspapers are here

                                Elaine

                                Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

                                http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
                                http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Took a look at Daniel b 1849 as suggested. Not sure if you have him after 1861. Can't see a likely one for 1871. Possible marriage for him in 1873 Merthyr to a Mary Ann Welsh. In 1881 he is with Mary Ann and children, first born Patrick (wonder why John didn't name first born after father, Patrick).

                                  Daniel is with Mary Ann 1891. He is living with single daughter Mary in 1901 and with Mary married name Gould in 1911. He gives a place of birth as Bandon which is in Cork.

                                  I can see possible parents for Daniel ie Patrick Sullivan and Mary Connolly who married 16/03/1836 Bandon. Other children with same parents,Mary b 1839, Tim b 1841. Unfortunately can't see same parents for a John. There is a John b 1837 and Daniel with same parents born Bandon ie Patrick Sullivan and Mary Hurley. Unfortunately Daniel's dob 1840.

                                  Note that Katazynka put up post for a birth of Catherine Lyons father Thomas baptised in Bandon.

                                  Vera
                                  Last edited by vera2013; 13-06-18, 07:36.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    That's sounds promising, only thing is daniels age like you said as he's 12 in 1861... is it possible they got it wrong on the 1861 census or can we rule that out ?

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      I do wonder if something is not quite right. Either John was not baptised a John or his father was not a Patrick. Maybe Daniel was not down the pit at 12 but that is not unheard of.
                                      I wonder if burial records for John or Daniel give info on father's name? That would be Archives as previously suggested. Did see that there was a booklet of burials by Glam FHS. Will look at my jottings.

                                      Vera

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        So them records you have posted you think are incorrect? How would be find out if John was baptised as something other than John and why would he change his name?

                                        Seems plausible though being as everyone has struggled to locate him haha.
                                        Thanks for the help.
                                        Lew.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Also how did you track daniel down so far? Was he easy to locate.

                                          Comment

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