brick wall

[Gwen@coggiecorner]

I have applied for the BC so hopefully will receive it Monday to down load. I spent most of the afternoon trying to find a connection between Minnie and George Watson, I thought it might be by marriage but his MMN is Flinn. The Watson's are on the 1939 REG and a member of the family Mary L Watson married, Ernest W Dowsett but found no connection yet with Minnie'a Dowsett Family. Not sure why Lucy calls herself Minnie on the 1911 census return.

What does NOK stand for please.

So like you all I do not know why she uses the surname Of Southgate, unless I did get to thinking may be her parents died young and she was bought up by another family. Not sure I am ever going to know.

[Chrissie Smiff]

NOK - Next of Kin

[Chrissie Smiff]

There is another puzzle re the Lucy Cotterill marriage #9. The 1911 census with George and Minnie says married 10 years, not 15.

[Katarzyna]

Yes and Minnie(Lucy) was 25 on the 1911 census so a marriage in 1896 doesn't add up either she would have been 10! Something here is very wrong.

[Gwen@coggiecorner]

I want to shouttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt this family is making me so mad the more I look at records the more the plot thickens I thought I had found Annie Elizabeth Dowsett but her fathers name is Robert Dowsett would you believe so not the right one. just have to be patient and wait for the BC only where research is concerned patience is not my strong point.

[JudithM]

I want to shouttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt this family is making me so mad the more I look at records the more the plot thickens I thought I had found Annie Elizabeth Dowsett but her fathers name is Robert Dowsett would you believe so not the right one. just have to be patient and wait for the BC only where research is concerned patience is not my strong point.

That Annie Elizabeth was 17 months when the 1911 census was taken, "your" Annie Elizabeth wasn't registered until April-June 1911 so either hadn't yet been born or was only a few weeks old on census night.

[JudithM]

Think this could be Minnie's younger sister Ann(ie) Elizabeth Dowsett in 1939. dob 16 Feb 1912 a year out but people often gave wrong year of birth either in error or on purpose.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61596/tna_r39_0991_0991f_003?pid=11758032&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D61596%26h%3D11758032%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DQQa2288%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=QQa2288&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

Listed as Southgate then crossed out in same ink and Dowsett added above. There's a later married name added as well but that is in different ink.

She married under her Dowsett surname to Walter J TULIT q3 1944 Islington 1b 278

[JudithM]

I think Minnie also had an older sister. Lucy Cotterill's parents, Charles and Sarah were at 49 Donald Street, Bow Poplar in 1901 with some children and a grand child, Lucy Dowsett aged 6. There's no birth reg in or about 1894 for Lucy Dowsett, mmn Cotterill, but there is a reg for Lucy Cotterill, no mother's maiden name listed so presumably illegitimate, q4 1894 Poplar 1c 616

[Chrissie Smiff]

And that would fit with the marriage in 1896 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true

And this would be George William Dowsett with his family in 1891 -

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LNDRG12_317_319-0344?pid=10193647&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3Duki1891%26h%3D10193647%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D1623&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true

So where are George and Lucy in 1911? Because the family we have pinpointed with wife Minnie doesn't seem to fit, even though the children do. My head is in a spin.

[Katarzyna]

I have been writing out all this just as you two have posted trying to summerise and surmise an answer to it all.

Lucy Cotterill b 1875 Bow Middx to parents Charles John Cotterell/Cottrell/Cotterill and Sarah Kedge.
1891 census: https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...04&usePUB=true
Married George William Dowsett – a soldier - 27 Jan 1896 at St Leonard St Mary, Bromley
His father was Stephen Dowsett
Marriage image: https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...04&usePUB=true
In 1901 census for Lucy’s father Charles John Cotterill there is a grandchild;
1901 census: https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...05&usePUB=true
Lucy Dowsett b c 1895 Bromley. I think this is George and Lucy’s first child. However at the moment I cannot find a birth registration for her. Possibly not registered. I cannot find George and Lucy with daughter Lucy on 1901 census.
At the time of Lucy’s birth George was in the army. He attested July 1893 but was discharged as invalid in June 1898 with Syphilis and other complications. His NOK was his father but I think that was because the records were not amended after his marriage.
His health may be the reason that there are no other children born for a further 11 years until George 1906, Minnie Amelia in 1908 and Annie Elizabeth in 1911.
Then George ( senior) dies in 1912.
I think the 1911 census is them though what happened to Lucy b 1896 is a mystery. Minnie (Lucy) gives her age as 25 but this could be a mistake as she would have been 35. If George was ill he might have made that error. Who knows.
Do you think that perhaps Lucy met Southgate and he helped bring up the children as their father?
I think that Judith’s post#47 is very revealing and a definite clue. If you look at the 1939 image you can see that Annie’s surname was written as Southgate originally but altered to Dowsett I think at the same time because a mistake had been made.

[Gwen@coggiecorner]

Where does Southgate fit in i am not sure the BC will give me any clues, may be her father was someone named Southgate I think I am never going to know, more researching tomorrow. Thanks everyone

[Katarzyna]

I think Minnie also had an older sister. Lucy Cotterill's parents, Charles and Sarah were at 49 Donald Street, Bow Poplar in 1901 with some children and a grand child, Lucy Dowsett aged 6. There's no birth reg in or about 1894 for Lucy Dowsett, mmn Cotterill, but there is a reg for Lucy Cotterill, no mother's maiden name listed so presumably illegitimate, q4 1894 Poplar 1c 616

Well done Judith - that will be the right one.

[ozgirl]

George's signature on the 1911 census seems to match the one on the army form. As he dies in 1912, and had been suffering from syphilis for a number of years, could this have caused dementia, one of the possible side effects, which might have been the reason for the mistakes on the form?

[Katarzyna]

School record (1897)for Lucy b 14 Sep 1894 - father George Dowsett

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1938&h=394167&ssrc=pt&tid=151427350&pid=302008004704&usePUB=true

[Janet in Yorkshire]

School record (1897)for Lucy b 14 Sep 1894 - father George Dowsett
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...04&usePUB=true

From my experience, "father" on a school admissions record could also mean "guardian" and didn't necessarily signify there was a blood tie with a child.

Jay

[Chrissie Smiff]

This looks like Ann Elizabeth's death - Ann Elizabeth Tulit - born 16 Apr 1911 - Died Dec 1993 Kings Lynn Norfolk

[JudithM]

This looks like Ann Elizabeth's death - Ann Elizabeth Tulit - born 16 Apr 1911 - Died Dec 1993 Kings Lynn Norfolk

and that April birthdate makes more sense than the Feb given on 1939 register (guess someone in the family she was living with gave the info in 1939) as she didn't appear on 1911 census.
Lucy born 1894 was again with her grandmother (now widowed) in 1911, surname given as Cottrell.

Despite wrong number of years married I think that 1911 for George and Minnie is probably right. Minnie could have been his pet name for wife Lucy. As George died in 1912 perhaps Lucy then lived with someone called Southgate and the children who were still very young were known by his name. There were a couple of possible Southgate men living in Bow in 1911, but I'm sure plenty of other possibilities - guess we'll never know for sure

[JudithM]

Well I think I've just shot down my theory that Lucy remarried someone called Southgate :(

Marriage Q1 1912 West Ham 4a 525
Lucy DOWSETT
John SCHOOLING

1939 register 4 Mortham Street West Ham
John (Henry) SCHOOLING M 23 June 1874? M Heavy Worker - pensioned
Lucy SCHOOLING F 16 June 1874 M Unpaid domestic work
George DOWSETT M 7 Aug 1896 S General Labourer - Heavy (seems to have aged by an extra 10 years -but must be "our" George I think as there was no George Dowsett registered in 3rd or 4th q of 1896)

[Elaine]

Can only see one baptism

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=FhD10760&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=LMAbirths&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&gsln=dowsett&gsln_x=0&msypn__ftp=middlesex,%20england&msypn=5275&msfng=george&msmng=lucy&MSAV=1&uidh=m6m&pcat=34&fh=0&h=4459344&recoff=&ml_rpos=1

Name: George William Dowsett
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Birth Place: London
Baptism Date: 19 Aug 1906
Baptism Place: Bromley By Bow All Hallows, Tower Hamlets, England
Father: George William Dowsett
Mother: Lucy Cothald Dowsett

103 Fern Street labourer

[Elaine]

Just checked 1911 again and George as

George Dowsett Son Single Male 4 1907 Bromley Fern ST School