Can anyone see this man on the 1891 Census please?

[Holly]

I've got confused now which census records are you looking for ?

Val, - because I can't find my Grandfather anywhere before his Marriage in Swansea in 1893, I'm looking at the earlier Censuses to see if he transposed his christian names. And so am looking at both William and James Wilson's.

Holly.

[Holly]

Hi Again Vera,
I've just looked at that Death Cert again, and it says, place of death, 'Redhill House, Edgeware, Middx U D'. I believe that Redhill House was the Infirmary of the old Workhouse; which later turned into Redhill Hospital.
Holly.

[Guest]

I thought you had him in 1871 and 1881 ?

[Holly]

Val, - I have James W Wilson, as per my initial post, in 1871 and 1881. In order to try and rule him out as being one and the same person as William James Wilson, I needed to try and find him in 1891 and 1901. I've never been able to find my Grandfather William James Wilson (1860 - 1937) ANYWHERE before his Marriage in Swansea in 1893. I have him on the 1901 and 1911 Censuses for Swansea.

Holly.

[Guest]

there is also a William Wilson, mothers maiden name Wilson registered right quarter and year

Wilson, William mother Wilson
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in Manchester Volume 08D Page 300

I think the James William, Kat mentions is the right one

[Guest]

you dont think this might be him do you

UK, Military Deserters, 1812-1927
NAME: James Wilson
BIRTH: Abt 1859 - Manchester
MILITARY: 8 Jul 1881 - Ashton
PUBLICATION: 27 Jul 1881

UK, Military Deserters, 1812-1927
NAME: James Wilson
BIRTH: Abt 1859 - Manchester
MILITARY: 8 Jul 1881 - Ashton
PUBLICATION: 25 Jul 1881
UK, Military Deserters, 1812-1927

NAME: James Wilson
BIRTH: Abt 1859 - Manchester
MILITARY: 8 Jul 1881 - Ashton
PUBLICATION: 29 Jul 1881

[Guest]

a maybe in 1891

William Wilson
Gender: Male
Age: 33
Relationship: Member of Crew (Member)
Birth Year: 1858
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Royal Navy
Residence Place: Moored In Falmouth Harbour, Royal Navy, Cornwall, England
Sub registration district: Falmouth
ED, Institution or Vessel: Ganges

[Holly]

It's so difficult to know... After such a length of time, and with so little to go on. I tend to return to what I do know:

On his Marriage Cert on the 22nd June 1893 in Swansea, he says he's single, 32yrs old, Occupation: Painter. Father, 'William Wilson (Deceased) Occupation: Mason'.

A few years back, I went to Kew and checked out the crew of HMS Ganges. The William Wilson on the 1891 was too old, and also, was still in the Navy when my Grandfather was married to my Grandmother and living in Swansea.

I also checked out the William Wilson born Manchester shown as a soldier in Colchester Barracks on the 1881, and went through all of the Attestations at Kew, but it wasn't him.

I have tried very hard to find him.

Holly.

[Guest]

considering he was supposed to have been born 20 Jul 1859 in Manchester ,the only two born and registered in Sep are
James William Wilson
William Wilson
Both have mothers maiden name Wilson, which is a shame.

[Katarzyna]

The only ref to being born in Manchester you have, as far as I can see, is from the 1901 and 1911 censuses. Perhaps he lied about that or he thought he was born there because he was brought up there?

The only deaths between 1881 and 1901 in the whole England and Wales (of the right age) are 2 for William James - none for James William.
Deaths Sep 1894
Wilson William James 33 Toxteth Park 8b 135
Deaths Mar 1899
Wilson William James 39 Liverpool 8b 8

[Holly]

My guess is that he put 'Manchester' on the Censuses, because he came from somewhere smaller and nearby which no one would have heard of!
I have my Grandfather's Death Cert, - he Died on the 29th December 1937, and was 77yrs, according to his son George Felix Wilson, who was the Informant.
And so, he said he was 32yrs in June 1893. He is 40yrs on the 1901, and 51 on the 1911.
On some of the Electoral Rolls for Swansea, from 1894 - 1931, he appears as ' W. James Wilson'.
Over the years I have ordered about a dozen Birth Certs, for William James Wilson's, William Wilson's, James Wilson's and James William Wilson's. None of the have matched the info given on his Marriage Cert:-(
Holly.

[GallowayLass]

Sorry I have double posted.

[GallowayLass]

For the James William born Manchester 1859, UKBMD further narrows it down to the subdistrict of Ancoats.
Genuki page for Ancoats http://www.genuki.org.uk/node/70033

[Holly]

Galloway Lass,

I think this Cert is for that Birth. (Father James Wilson).

Holly.JamesWilson1859.jpg

[Katarzyna]

The only deaths between 1881 and 1901 in the whole England and Wales (of the right age) are 2 for William James - none for James William.
Deaths Sep 1894
Wilson William James 33 Toxteth Park 8b 135
Deaths Mar 1899
Wilson William James 39 Liverpool 8b 8

As these are the only deaths for William it does suggest that he was elsewhere between 1881 and his marriage in 1894. Indeed it could be he was elsewhere from sometime in the 1860's up til those few years after 1891 to 1894. I think the net needs to be spread a lot wider. I have searched Military and found zilch but what about emigration? The whole family could have up sticks and William came back later.

[Holly]

My guess is Merchant Navy. Of his six sons, five spent time in The Merchant Navy and RNR. However, Seamans records for 1870 - 1890 are very patchy. And then, surely he would appear with his family before that?

Holly

[vera2013]

I couldn't see a James W Wilson in the 1891 census either. However couldn't see the other family members either
.
There is a very strong Military/Naval attachment. Wonder did that come from Margaret's side. The children's middle names are those of RN ships.

Just scrolling FMP there is a William Wilson record which has a combination of what William has put on record ie paper hanger, stonemason, living Manchester but this one is born Durham.
This probably poses more questions than answers.

1881 Ogden Street, Hulme, Chorlton
William Heyes Head, widower Paper Hanger b 1827 Manchester
Hannah Wilson, daughter, married b 1857 Manchester
William Wilson sil, b 1859 Durham, Stonemason
Amy gd, b 1883 Hulme
Edith and William b 1890 Manchester
There was also a Hannah b 1888 d 1890

William and Hannah m 1887. William Stonemason, widow, f Thomas a Shoemaker.
I can't see any children b after 1888.

Hannah, Edith and William are in the Workhouse in 1900 where Hannah dies. William and Edith in workhouse census for 1901.

Can't see William. However, a tree on Ancestry has him as a Private in the Kent Militia and dying in Chatham.


Vera

[Holly]

Thanks so much for looking Vera, - your help is greatly appreciated.

I have looked at Margaret Rees' family in and around Swansea, although I'm stuck with finding a definate Baptism for her Grandfather Evan Rees in (Approx) 1810. They all seem to have worked in the Copper and Tin works, and before that on the land. Absolutely no Naval connections that I've ever found. My Father and two brothers were RNR in WW1, George Felix Wilson was in the RFC, and several Rees first cousins were in the Army in WW1.

I didn't realise that the son's of WJ Wilson's middle names were of RN Ships! (I had though that they were family names from his side, and so have always searched under that assumption). Were they HMS then? And current to the Births, or much earlier? I have always wondered why my Father signed up with The Taylor and Sanderson Steam Shipping Company that operated out of Sunderland, when there must have been lots operating out of Swansea...

I do remember my Uncle William Havelock Wilson telling me once that his Grandfather(?) had been a cabin boy at the Battle of Trafalgar, but I don't remember him mentioning any names. I also remember him telling me that as a boy he had visited his Father's family in Manchester, - (again, no names!). Frustratingly, William Havelock Wilson, (Born Swansea 1894) is nowhere to be found on the 1911 Census, and I have looked for him there in 1911, although it is also possible that he was away at sea then...

I will see if I can follow that family through that you mention above.

If William James Wilson (1860 - 1937) was a Naval Rating, - say from 1875 - 1900, then there should be some record somewhere? I downloaded the RNLI Record of the William Wilson from the National Archives Site, and he joined up in Chatham, and seems to have stayed there. I concluded that he wasn't my Grandfather.

Holly.

[Katarzyna]

That should read 1891 census not 1881, Vera

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=gql332&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=uki1891&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsln=wilson&gsln_x=0&_F3CB4962=Chorlton&_FCF51D62=34&_FFEC2492=3193%20&MSAV=1&uidh=5u8&pcat=35&fh=1&h=13734790&recoff=103%20105&ml_rpos=2

[Katarzyna]

a maybe in 1891

William Wilson
Gender: Male
Age: 33
Relationship: Member of Crew (Member)
Birth Year: 1858
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Royal Navy
Residence Place: Moored In Falmouth Harbour, Royal Navy, Cornwall, England
Sub registration district: Falmouth
ED, Institution or Vessel: Ganges

I think this one would be a good place to start??