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  • #21
    I dont have a reference number Guy as I cant find her birth registration.

    I didnt know they were in the workhouse for a week before going to the school. Still wonder where they were in 1871 and if they admitted themselves I wonder if they could have given false names if they were told to by the person telling them to go there!!

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    • #22
      How sad, Gloryer. I would like to bet that they were not registered at all and the names they gave may not have been their original ones. I note on Vera's post it says they are illegitimate and if they admitted themselves they may have been roaming the streets for a long time. It is also possible that their names were given them on admittance to the school.

      I see they were admitted in January, probably frozen and starving, poor things.

      Anne
      Last edited by Anne in Carlisle; 25-01-18, 10:52.

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      • #23
        I would like to think their first names were their real ones or they would have got confused changing their names but its quite feasable that their surnames are not real. I started doing a search for all the Maria born 1870 in woolwich on 1871 but I dont have an option to add another member of household as charles.
        I have a feeling they were with their parents or parent and they left them on the doorstep of the workhouse.......

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        • #24
          Originally posted by gloryer View Post
          I would like to think their first names were their real ones or they would have got confused changing their names but its quite feasable that their surnames are not real. I started doing a search for all the Maria born 1870 in woolwich on 1871 but I dont have an option to add another member of household as charles.
          I have a feeling they were with their parents or parent and they left them on the doorstep of the workhouse.......
          On fmp you can search with other household members names. Don't know if it would let you search without a surname though.

          Have you tried the gro website of late? Their births index up to 1916 is available to search once you log in, and all mother's maiden names are included in their index. There is a dash recorded if the child is illegitimate.

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          • #25
            does ancestry give the option of searching with another person in household, dont have a fmp subscription but can access ancestry at the library

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            • #26
              Bit more info from the Plumstead W/House Creed Register 1880-83



              This is Charles briefly in the workhouse prior to his placement

              Charles Butler aged 15 admitted 31/10/1882 discharged ? 30/10/1882
              Parish whence admitted Plumstead
              C/E
              Relative Wm Butler (brother) 2 Howard Place, Powis Street, Woolwich

              previously in workhouse 25/01/1878
              Informant - Self
              to Mr Gess

              Will look for an entry for Maria prior to her placement

              Vera

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              • #27
                Originally posted by gloryer View Post
                does ancestry give the option of searching with another person in household, dont have a fmp subscription but can access ancestry at the library
                Yes Gloryer, they do. I have looked and I can understand why you first thought it was the family in the caravan. The ages of Charles and Maria are just about right aren't they. Now we know that they were illegitimate though I looked for them with only one parent, or without any, but non seemed to fit together by age and name.

                Since reading Vera's post I have been looking in 1881 for the possible brother William in Woolwich without success.
                Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                • #28
                  Ah! A brother William, and maybe not a father, as Maria said on marriage? Could be a clue?
                  Anne

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                  • #29
                    there is a baptism at sutton for a maria butler which gives william as father and on her marriage certificate she puts william as father so maybe an older brother william was looking after them and couldnt cope any more

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                    • #30
                      would it be possible to search that address in 1881?

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                      • #31


                        William Butler aged 30 at 3 Howards Yard Powis Street in 1881 - could this be him?
                        Last edited by JudithM; 27-01-18, 12:09.
                        Judith passed away in October 2018

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                        • #32
                          tried finding it on my searches but not showing up, is there anybody else with him please?

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                          • #33
                            Try searching for his wife Ellen Butler aged 29 born Watford, Hertfordshire
                            Judith passed away in October 2018

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                            • #34
                              thank you, I have looked at this one many times in search of the father William and dismissed it as they had other children of younger ages BUT now looking at this it could very well be their brother, so maybe if I can track down their marriage and get Williams fathers name I may be a step closer.

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                              • #35
                                do you have the folio number please so that I can enter it onto lostcousins website? You never know what else or who else I may find

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                                • #36
                                  the plot thickens!!! I found a possible marriage of William Butler and Ellen Doggett in 1873 so looked on 1871 for Ellen and she is a servant in a school for commercial travellers!!

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                                  • #37
                                    Butler 1881
                                    RG11; Piece: 746; Folio: 118; Page: 20
                                    Kat

                                    My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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                                    • #38
                                      thanks Kat

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