Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Elusive Royal Navy Scott great grandad stationed in Egypt

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Elusive Royal Navy Scott great grandad stationed in Egypt

    Hello everyone! I am new here :o and was wondering if this amazing community could help me with a brick wall.
    Warning! A massive wall of text ahead. And huge thank you in advance for anyone who is willing to help!
    I have been researching my husbands family tree for a while now, and while his paternal line was extremely straightforward (as they were mainly English with a mix of 18th century Jewish thrown in (bonus - his astoundingly diverse Ancestry DNA screenshot at the end of this post), his maternal line is shrouded in mysteries and different nationalities and what appears to be myths and wishful thinking/aristocracy rumours. There is lots of lore that got passed down, from Italian royalty with castles to super-rich Greek casino owners who lost everything in the end. While alluring and exciting, it is rather frustrating as there is very little facts or dates to back any of it up. A lot of the information is very blurry, so i decided to focus on my husband's maternal great-grandfather who appears to have served in the Royal Navy and so far debunked the myth of him being an Admiral or a Captain that floated around in the family. Unfortunately, most of that side of the family passed away, so gathering information is extremely difficult, but i will try to cover the naval granddad's story as short as i can. This gentleman is an utter mystery and i feel like Sherlock Holmes trying to unravel his life story with deduction.

    Photos in Uniform: Link Imgur
    Name/Last Name: Harry Thompson
    Middle Names: Unknown, does not appear on his daughters Baptism papers, appears as just “Harry Thompson”. This is the only document i have of him plus photos.
    Date of Birth: Unknown. Most likely somewhere in uk. Possible range of 1982-1912.
    Date of Death: Unknown. But definitely before 1957 (as the entire family up and left Egypt for England (Suez Crisis is my guess - the family is not big on history so they just told me they got “expelled” from Egypt). His wife married again apparently after his death. She married again either in Egypt or in UK. My best bet (see explanation below) would be on late 1930's to early-mid 1940's.
    Nationality: British subject (possibly of Scottish origin, as the family said he was Scottish, however it is unknown if he lived there or just had Scottish blood).

    Military: as far as i could find out, Royal Navy, served in WWI as per a thread on /r/Militariacollecting and corroborating replies to a thread on Ancestry boards.
    Rank (based on the uniform - cap, collar, sleeve, medal ribbons):
    • The star and O.S. insignia on his collar of a Royal Navy Officer's Steward, this was introduced after 1931.(source: reply on ancestry thread, corroborated with by own research into the star on the collar)
    • His single "bootlace" half stripe on his sleeve cuff shows he's a Warrant Officer-Steward. Warrant Steward - supervision of work of Stewards and administration of Wardroom Mess services to give an improved standard in large shore establishments. (source: same threads) Stationed in: Alexandria, Al Iskandariyah, Egypt. (Certain, as his daughter was born and baptised there:https://imgur.com/a/9p8Zk ) sometime between 1890-1957. His rank would imply that he did not serve on a ship, but rather on a shore establishment, which they still prefixed with HMS, despite it being a naval base. I’ve looked into shore establishments in Alexandria at that time period, and it’s safe to say it would have been HMS Nile (more likely as per his timeline) or HMS Mosquito.

    Medal Ribbons: (identified by two different users on two different websites, both with same answers, so good certainty there)
    • Bottom - RN Long Service and Good Conduct (RN-Royal Navy)
    • Top - 1914-15 Star, WW1 British War Medal, and WW1 Victory Medal



    Issue: Lydia Amelia Thompson (Married Joannides, later married Beach) & Theresa Joannides (un-identical twins, born on same day) DOB: 4 Aug 1934 Alexandria, Egypt. Lydia's DOD: 24 Sep 2009, Italy. (Lived in UK from 1957 until a lot later in her life) Theresa's DOD: 29 November 1979, London, UK

    Marriage factoid: It is rumoured that he was ~20 years older than Mary Camilleri.
    Spouse: Mary/Maria Camilleri (Listed as ?Fausta? on their daughters baptism, however her UK Death record (i do not posses the certificate itself yet). B: 19 Apr 1912 in Milano, Lombardia, Italy (questionable, could be Sicily, date however is a definite). D: 7 Jun 1993 in Fulham, London, UK. Fausta could be her middle name as homage to her father Gustav(e) Camilleri who also died in London in Nov 1960. She had a second husband who appears to have also died in Alexandria, his name was Elio Rousso, he appears to have died prior to family coming over to UK, however he had children with Mary who also came to UK.

    The deduction theory used to find out his rough period of service/life:
    The OS insignia was not in circulation until 1931, his daughter was born in 1934, in 1957 the family left for England without him and his wife without her new husband who she appears to have married in Egypt. He was also yet again a lot older than his wife. His wife had two children with her new husband around 1930-1950(he died around 1950) This gives me a…
    Life period of sometime from ~1892 to 1937-1950.

    The family that came over and lived together in UK shortly after as per Electoral Register of 1960:
    Lydia Thompson (daughter) - “Joannides” at the time of moving to UK in 1957. This is where my husbands Greek DNA comes from.
    George Joannides - Lydia’s Husband (moved to UK with family, but didn’t live with them)
    Theresa Thompson (daughter)
    Gustav Camilleri (Harry’s wife’s parent)
    Giovanna Maria Camilleri (Harry’s wife’s parent) - Maria Giovanna also possible. (Died 1965, Camberwell, London)
    Mary/Maria Fausta? Camilleri who has now become Rousso, maiden name unknown. (Wife)
    Mary+New Husban's Daughter
    Mary+New Husbands Son

    *Disclaimer: *All people mentioned in the post are now deceased. Any records of living descendants implied in this post are open to the public.

    Where i looked: British Consulate Records, Naval Medal Rolls (there’s just too many Harry Thompsons to pin him down and looking for rank, country, or shore establishment yielded no results), British subjects born overseas, Incoming Passengers to UK (which go until 1960) etc, etc… none of the family appear on any records there. I have worldwide ancestry subscription and i currently have a “world” running trial on findmypast. Checked variations and tons of records there to no avail.

    What else can i do at this point to push through this brick wall? Did i miss something or did i not make a connection somewhere where i could have? What other avenues could i explore to get past this? This has now become something of an obsession, i am not the type to leave a project half finished and this is killing me every time i think of possibilities i could have once i get past it.

    Thank you for reading and any input you could provide!Here’s the promised ultra-diverse DNA result snap.https://imgur.com/a/Yh3E6 Interesting fact, on MyHeritage his DNA shows Italian, while Ancestry missed it. Camilleri is the Italian line in the family.

  • #2
    My apologies, Theresa was never a Joannides, she remained Thompson until her death. Lydia was.

    Comment


    • #3
      "Date of Birth: Unknown. Most likely somewhere in uk. Possible range of 1882-1912.
      Top - 1914-15 Star, WW1 British War Medal, and WW1 Victory Medal "

      Hi and Welcome to FTF Elenasavi.
      I cannot help much with regards the to Military angle - there are far more qualified members here. However, I think we can cut back his date of birth quite generously. If he had received the 1914-1915 Star then he certainly wouldn't have been born post 1900.

      "The OS insignia was not in circulation until 1931"
      If this is so he might have been in a different branch of the RN during the 1st WW.
      Kat

      My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
        "I cannot help much with regards the to Military angle - there are far more qualified members here. However, I think we can cut back his date of birth quite generously. If he had received the 1914-1915 Star then he certainly wouldn't have been born post 1900.
        Hi there! Thank you for the welcome!
        Oh my, that is a very valid point! I can't believe i didn't realise that!!! Well spotted! Thank you so much that helps narrow it down!

        We have discovered a wedding certificate of his daughter, he was dead at the time, but she refered to him there as "Steward, MERCHANT navy" So im not sure if i got the RN quite right? However she was now particularly known for being precise on things, so she could've got it wrong in turn!

        Thank you so much for spotting the timeline link! So appreciate it every little bits

        Comment


        • #5
          Are you sure the camilleri family was italian and not maltese? Being in the navy, stationed in malta would make more sense than italy. And malta was part of the empire.

          Comment


          • #6
            Have you considered any records with the name Henry? Harry is derivative name for Henry.

            Have you been to the National Archives at Kew to see what you can find there? They hold a mass of naval and military records which are not all available on line.

            If you cannot get to Kew you could commission someone to go for you - Ann Swabey on here is a whizz at this kind of research and is very reasonable cost-wise.

            Margaret

            Comment


            • #7
              he was stationed in Egypt, never in Italy, his daughter was born there in Egypt, married there, not maltese at all, they were from italy, but lived in Egypt.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by margaretmarch View Post
                Have you considered any records with the name Henry? Harry is derivative name for Henry.

                Have you been to the National Archives at Kew to see what you can find there? They hold a mass of naval and military records which are not all available on line.

                If you cannot get to Kew you could commission someone to go for you - Ann Swabey on here is a whizz at this kind of research and is very reasonable cost-wise.

                Margaret
                funny you mention that, we have 2 documents on him now, in one he is Henry, in the other he is Harry!!!! How frustrating!

                How much would it cost to hire ann for some research in Kew, just so i have a rough idea of a budget id need to gather? I am able to get there, but it would be a day trip for me. Plus, i have no idea what i am doing. I was however considering it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by elenasavi View Post
                  funny you mention that, we have 2 documents on him now, in one he is Henry, in the other he is Harry!!!! How frustrating!

                  How much would it cost to hire ann for some research in Kew, just so i have a rough idea of a budget id need to gather? I am able to get there, but it would be a day trip for me. Plus, i have no idea what i am doing. I was however considering it.
                  Find Ann in the members list under the Community button at the top of the screen (close to where it says Forum) and send her a Private message, she will tell you her rates etc. I used her and she is very knowledgeable and skilled with anything Military at Kew. Much quicker and more satisfactory using her as you know then that if she finds nothing - there is nothing to find! whereas if you go yourself you would not know if you had missed a record set.

                  Even though he referred to himself as Harry I know that often people still give their 'proper' name for official records so I would mostly be looking for Henry.

                  Margaret

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just looking around for what I could find about ranks etc in the Navy and found this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...19th_centuries which seems to indict that a steward is a civilian and did not wear a uniform.

                    Looking at the photo you have it looks like a dark jacket dressed up with lapel badges and medal colours so not a uniform.

                    If this is the case I doubt you would find anything in the Navy records. No doubt Ann could advise.

                    Margaret
                    Last edited by margaretmarch; 13-11-17, 21:08.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by margaretmarch View Post
                      Just looking around for what I could find about ranks etc in the Navy and found this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...19th_centuries which seems to indict that a steward is a civilian and did not wear a uniform.

                      Looking at the photo you have it looks like a dark jacket dressed up with lapel badges and medal colours so not a uniform.
                      If this is the case I doubt you would find anything in the Navy records. No doubt Ann could advise.

                      Margaret
                      I'm wondering if the photo was taken during WW2 and if Harry was working for the RN, rather than serving in the navy? If he is wearing a WW1 medal ribbon, this should mean that he served in WW1 in some capacity:
                      1) would this have put him at an age where he could have been exempt from military service in WW2, as opposed to being a civilian engaged in war work?
                      2)I'm not familiar with medal awards for the RN - does earning the WW1 awards indicate he served in the navy during WW1 or could he have been in the army and, on discharge, as a civilian, have become a steward working for the navy? If he was working in a shore base rather than a ship, that would seem to imply it was the Royal Navy rather than merchant.
                      Do I take it that you have been unable to find any paperwork for his marriage? Surely there has got to be some record somewhere? That would help with age, occupation and possibly other background details.

                      Jay
                      Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 13-11-17, 23:28.
                      Janet in Yorkshire



                      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Another thought, the information on any death cert is only as good as the knowledge of the informant. A death cert is more likely to have unintentional incorrect data that either a birth or marriage certificate.

                        Jay
                        Janet in Yorkshire



                        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View Post
                          I'm wondering if the photo was taken during WW2 and if Harry was working for the RN, rather than serving in the navy? If he is wearing a WW1 medal ribbon, this should mean that he served in WW1 in some capacity:
                          1) would this have put him at an age where he could have been exempt from military service in WW2, as opposed to being a civilian engaged in war work?
                          2)I'm not familiar with medal awards for the RN - does earning the WW1 awards indicate he served in the navy during WW1 or could he have been in the army and, on discharge, as a civilian, have become a steward working for the navy? If he was working in a shore base rather than a ship, that would seem to imply it was the Royal Navy rather than merchant.
                          Do I take it that you have been unable to find any paperwork for his marriage? Surely there has got to be some record somewhere? That would help with age, occupation and possibly other background details.

                          Jay
                          First of all - Thank you so much for looking into this Jay! Truly, from the bottom of my heart.
                          1. Possibly, i've narrowed down his year of birth now to roughly 1892-1895(latest possible to enlist in WW1). So range could start a bit earlier, but he was roughly 20 years older than his wife from the family stories.
                          2. Possibly started working for navy later, all we know is that he got married in Egypt sometime around 1930's. There record of him will definitely exist, one way or another, as he had medals. From what we know out of family stories, it seems that he was in Alexandria, Egypt for at least some time in order to meet his wife and get married and have children. I might be able to source an address as to where they lived in Egypt, do you think that would help me locate any kind of records? I have an address where his daughter, Lidia, lived in Egypt.
                          He would have got married in a catholic church. The italian family he married was very strict and Lidia and her sister and Mary were CHAPERONED! We have a picture of them on a beach with the lady who used to chaperone them. We even know her name! If only Lidia left more information about her mother and father!



                          Thank you once again.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I looked for details of the BMD system in Egypt and found this Egypt CR VS 2008.pdf which explains how it is organised. Might hep you pinpoint who to contact.

                            Records of medals would have existed at one time but not everything survived and your problem is knowing his proper name and the fact is it s fairly common one.

                            Margaret
                            Last edited by margaretmarch; 14-11-17, 07:29.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by margaretmarch View Post
                              I looked for details of the BMD system in Egypt and found this [ATTACH]18707[/ATTACH] which explains how it is organised. Might hep you pinpoint who to contact.

                              Records of medals would have existed at one time but not everything survived and your problem is knowing his proper name and the fact is it s fairly common one.

                              Margaret
                              Thanks so much for this! The good news is that Harry himself was not born in Egypt, he was born somewhere in the UK. (which is the sole reason Lidia later was able to migrate to UK, as she was his daughter). He is listed as English on her marriage certificate in a catholic church in alexandria. Lidia and her twin were born there, but seems were not reported to the consulate.

                              True, not everything survived, but there would be at least something. Military kept way too many records for him to just disappear. I am not ready to give up on elusive Mr Thompson of WWI just yet

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by elenasavi View Post
                                Thanks so much for this! The good news is that Harry himself was not born in Egypt, he was born somewhere in the UK. (which is the sole reason Lidia later was able to migrate to UK, as she was his daughter). He is listed as English on her marriage certificate in a catholic church in alexandria. Lidia and her twin were born there, but seems were not reported to the consulate.

                                True, not everything survived, but there would be at least something. Military kept way too many records for him to just disappear. I am not ready to give up on elusive Mr Thompson of WWI just yet
                                Oh no! don't give up! You will get there in the end. I expect there is a record of his medals but finding the right person amongst the many with the same name with so little information is hard.

                                Margaret

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by margaretmarch View Post
                                  Oh no! don't give up! You will get there in the end. I expect there is a record of his medals but finding the right person amongst the many with the same name with so little information is hard.

                                  Margaret
                                  I have a suspecting feeling he and Mary might have got married in the same church where Lidia and Theresa been baptised. I am thinking of getting in touch with the church somehow and seeing if they could find their records. If i can get that marriage certificate, i reckon it would pretty much answer all questions about Harry. Place, date he was born, even his parent's names! Time to call Egypt me thinks.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by elenasavi View Post
                                    I have a suspecting feeling he and Mary might have got married in the same church where Lidia and Theresa been baptised. I am thinking of getting in touch with the church somehow and seeing if they could find their records. If i can get that marriage certificate, i reckon it would pretty much answer all questions about Harry. Place, date he was born, even his parent's names! Time to call Egypt me thinks.
                                    Depends what they show on marriage certificates there. In UK all you get is age occupation and father's name! but even as little as that would be a help.

                                    Margaret

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      If you're thinking of contacting the church, they should have marriage registers (or be able to point you in the direction of past registers.) If it was an RC church, I'm not sure how detailed the church registers are - the ones I've viewed have only recorded names and marital status of the bride and groom; no ages nor names of fathers. In England of course, marriages in RC churches are registrar attended and so full details are recorded by the register in the civil registration book.
                                      I believe that in some predominantly RC countries, there is a separate civil ceremony often followed by a church "marriage" service. In which case, I would think the civil record would have the details useful to a genealogist. I have no idea what the set up was in Egypt in the inter war years - you may have to do a bit of googling to find out. I'm sure there would have been some kind of system of official record keeping of life events. Did you say upthread you had already looked for an overseas consular marriage?

                                      Jay
                                      Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 14-11-17, 11:02.
                                      Janet in Yorkshire



                                      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I have just looked in the GRO Consular birth indices on FMP and see that 2 Camilleri births were registered in Cairo 1916-20. I think this index is for British nationals born overseas - so, was Maria Camilleri the child of Italian parents, OR born into a family with an Italian heritage????? Of course, it's quite possible that the name Camilleri is an Italian equivalent of Smith, Jones or Brown.

                                        Jay
                                        Janet in Yorkshire



                                        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X