Untraceable Father on Marriage Cert

[Katarzyna]

What is interesting about those children born to John and Eliza is Elizabeth's birth not as stated on the 1861 and 1871 censuses

FRANCE, JAMES CHARLESWORTH
GRO Reference: 1852 J Quarter in HUDDERSFIELD UNION Volume 09A Page 231
FRANCE, EDWARD CHARLESWORTH
GRO Reference: 1854 M Quarter in ASHTONUNDERLYNE Volume 08D Page 462
FRANCE, ELIZABETH CHARLESWORTH
GRO Reference: 1856 D Quarter in HUDDERSFIELD Volume 09A Page 225
FRANCE, MARTHA CHARLESWORTH
GRO Reference: 1855 S Quarter in ASHTONUNDERLYNE Volume 08D Page 419
FRANCE, SARAH CHARLESWORTH
GRO Reference: 1854 M Quarter in ASHTONUNDERLYNE Volume 08D Page 462
FRANCE, JOHN CHARLESWORTH
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 157

FRANCE, CHRISTOPHER CHARLSWORTH
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 136

[Katarzyna]

Widnes where John and Elizabeth married is about 10 km from Warrington.

[Katarzyna]

From Vera :
I can see a possible James with father John, ?Keeper mother Eliza in 1861 living in Warrington.

John 32 Huddersfield, ?Keeper
Eliza 34 Stalybridge
James 9 Huddersfield
Martha 6 Huddersfield
Elizabeth 4 Stalybridge
Christopher 2 Warrington

These have been transcribed as Francis but clearly France on the image.

Edit: I think his occ is time keeper ( T on Thomas Norbury above)

[Katarzyna]

On 1871 he is also described as a Time Keeper. Do you think this could be part of an Office Clerk's job?

[vera2013]

I would have thought it would be checking the times of the comings and goings of a workforce, possibly factory. He might have had a little office by the entrance.

I forgot about the 1861 Francis transcription Kat. My eyes were starting to go!

Just had a thought Elizabeth and John H never named a male child Joseph.

Vera

[Lena Andrews]

Thank you for the posts today, ladies! It really feels like I'm not alone on this search! You are great! I'll have a look at all you've posted today....

[Lena Andrews]

I'm excited by the 'Timekeeper' finding. Apparently it was a clerk who kept a record of the working hours of staff. There's still the odd fact that a father Joseph is recorded on the marriage cert, which doesn't really sound like John. It may LOOK similar, if badly written, and I haven't seen the original document to check for that... so, I think this could well be the error that has created this research brick wall!! I'll look into it more. I had made a note last week that the possible mother called Charlesworth pointed at parents Ellen & George, but I wasn't 100% sure. The proximity of the James France is another good pointer. I hope this pans out, and I can 'reasonably' prove that it is the correct family

[Lena Andrews]

Before I forget, I recently found this child for Elizabeth and John. He died the same year, so never showed on any census. Such an unusual name, I thought it could be a clue, but didn't find anything on the France side, a few on the Evans, but nothing I could add to my tree (yet?).

EVANS, PIERCE BROWN	FRANCE
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 579

[Lena Andrews]

So far there are details making me a tiny bit uneasy about John France & Eliza Charlesworth being the parents (birth year of Elizabeth is slightly earlier than I expected, and that Elizabeth's siblings don't share any names with my Elizabeth's own children, apart from John, but that is also the father's name). BUT the whole timekeeper thing, and now I know that the James France living next door, the potential brother of Elizabeth, named a son of his John Henry. Was this after my John Henry Evans, possibly James's brother-in-law? I can't find the baptisms for the children of John & Eliza, nor the actual marriage docs. apart from James & Ann's. They don't seem to be on Ancestry, but I will keep looking. I want to find out if Timekeeper is always John's occupation, and see if there is a marriage for his daughter Elizabeth, which would of course rule her out if it wasn't the marriage I have to John Henry Evans. James France's marriage to Ann Walker: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true

[vera2013]

I would have thought the Huddersfield reg was ok for Elizabeth. She gives her age as 20 on the 2O/08/77 marriage. That reg was for the 4th Q of 1856 so she may have been born after the 20 Aug 1856?

I couldn't see an image for the m of John and Eliza. Only the Banns for 3/10/17 March 1850 on Family Search.

They married at St Mary's Oldham 31/03/1850. Eliza's f Christopher. John's father James. No occ for John unfortunately.

In 1851 with Eliza John's occ is Hand Loom Weaver.

Vera

[Katarzyna]

This Elizabeth was born Huddersfield Dec qtr 1856 which means she would have been 21 by Dec qtr 1877 so she was correct to state she was 20 at her marriage in August.
James first born son was John Henry 1883 -1887

Was composing Vera! snap

[Katarzyna]

Steve Whitwam has a big Colne Valley website here Some of the links do not work. I know Steve retired so the site has not been updated
I tried emailing Steve on Steve@whitwam.freeserve.co.uk but have yet to have a reply.

The Huddersfield and District Family History Society have booklets of transcribed baptisms for Slaithwaite. See here
Choose Huddersfield then Slaithwaite. They cost £2.50 each
There are 6 booklets starting 1685 - 1936

[Katarzyna]

This is the death for Eliza:
Name Eliza France
Registration Year 1864
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district Warrington
Parishes for this Registration District Warrington
Inferred County Lancashire
Volume 8c
Page 90

Edit:
FRANCE, ELIZA Age 37

[Lena Andrews]

Thank you very much, Kat. I guess I was going by the ages given on censuses for my Elizabeth, making her born in 1857 or 1858, and that not exactly tallying with the new info on the marriage cert and the birth reg for the daughter of Eliza & John. I guess the marriage doc should be more reliable evidence than census though. I have found some baptisms for Slaithwaite, but nothing for Elizabeth, I suppose she may have been baptised elsewhere. I'll look into the options, but that was good of you, contacting Steve for me.

[Katarzyna]

have sent you a private message (pm), Lena. See notifications at the top of the page.

[Katarzyna]

This is the 1851 Vera found:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/YRKHO107_2291_2291-0145/10586399?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/110184423/person/210078486081/facts

We only have Eliza Charlesworth on 1851 census b Almondbury Yorkshire and 1861 b Stalybridge.
This could be Eliza with father Christopher in 1841 . Christopher, Betty and Eliza were all born "out of county" so Eliza was probably born in Almondbury, Yorkshire.

Christopher Charlswth
Estimated Birth Year abt 1791
Civil parish Ashton Under Lyne
Hundred Salford
County/Island Lancashire
Registration district Ashton and Oldham
Sub-registration district Hartshead
Piece 533
Book 11
Folio 41
Page number 19
Christopher Charlswth 50
Betty Charlswth 20
William Charlswth 15
Eliza Charlswth 15
James Charlswth 6

Although Elizabeth was born in Slaithwaite they probably had the children baptised in either Warrington where John's parents were living or Ashton Under Lyne/Stalybridge/Oldham area where Eliza's parents were living at that time.

[Lena Andrews]

Thanks Kathy. I had trouble trying to find Christopher Charlesworth, I'll check that out. I got your email, and I'm working through the file. I've already noticed from that that my Elizabeth and her probable brother James have 2 different street addresses in Liverpool in common - Ryder St (no.15 & no.17)and Scourfield street (no.22 & no.40). (Looking at newspaper archive I found Thomas France, son of David, probable first cousin to my Elizabeth, died in 1898 by drowning himself in a water trough after being made unstable by a stroke! Seems a bit fishy to me, he had to 'double himself up in order to drown' while his carer was asleep). I now realise that James France's son John Henry was named after both his grandfathers, not after my John Henry Evans, which was a bit disappointing, but I'm 99% confident that James France belongs in my family tree, and there seems to be no other place for him but as brother to my Elizabeth! :D I will likely contact Steve soon. Thanks again.

[Katarzyna]

Thanks Kathy. I had trouble trying to find Christopher Charlesworth, I'll check that out. I got your email, and I'm working through the file. I've already noticed from that that my Elizabeth and her probable brother James have 2 different street addresses in Liverpool in common - Ryder St (no.15 & no.17)and Scourfield street (no.22 & no.40). (Looking at newspaper archive I found Thomas France, son of David, probable first cousin to my Elizabeth, died in 1898 by drowning himself in a water trough after being made unstable by a stroke! Seems a bit fishy to me, he had to 'double himself up in order to drown' while his carer was asleep). I now realise that James France's son John Henry was named after both his grandfathers, not after my John Henry Evans, which was a bit disappointing, but I'm 99% confident that James France belongs in my family tree, and there seems to be no other place for him but as brother to my Elizabeth! :D I will likely contact Steve soon. Thanks again.

You have Vera to thank for linking up James to his sister Elizabeth by address - a quality scout is our Vera! Post#40

That death looks a bit fishy to me too LOL!

[vera2013]

I just posted and lost it. Thanks Kat. Can't find a blushing emoji

Lena I have tried to link your Elizabeth with James and his family. Nothing pops up. Elizabeth and John H named all their children after John H's family members with the exception of Marian and Pierce Brown and there was no Joseph. Don't think they link to another family rather than just personal choice.

The MC's don't throw up any witnesses. James has his wife's sibling and husband and no image for Martha but then Elizabeth would not have been an Evans when they married. John France DC might throw n up an informant but possibly Ellen was that. John France death in 1877 was before father John Snr died. Records for Christopher are few but may have involved Elizabeth in his admission.

Vera

[Katarzyna]

Vera, Steve sent me a pdf which I passed on to Lena:
John France was baptised 25 Dec 1828 Slaithwaite to parents James France and Martha Sykes
1841 census

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=Fwm2127&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=uki1841&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=john&gsfn_x=NP_NN&gsln=france&gsln_x=NP_NS&msbdy=1828&msbdy_x=1&msbdp=5&msbpn__ftp=Huddersfield,%20Yorkshire,%20England&msbpn=88919&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7C0%7C0%7C3257%7C3251%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C5292%7C88919%7C0%7C0%7C&MSAV=1&uidh=5u8&pcat=35&fh=11&h=12142517&recoff=6%207&ml_rpos=12

None of John's children were baptised in Slaithwaite although both James and Elizabeth were born there. The other siblings were born Stalybridge and Warrington.
I think this is Christopher Charlesworth - Eliza's father on 1851 census Stalybridge:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8860&h=11773244&ssrc=pt&tid=110184423&pid=210078553717&usePUB=true

I really was hoping to find these baps on Lancs OPC but no go :(