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Untraceable Father on Marriage Cert

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  • #21
    Probate of Jane France in 1871:



    These wills would enable you to decide if they are your line or not.
    Elizabeth
    Research Interests:
    England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
    Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

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    • #22
      There is a death notice for Jane France in 1871 in the newspapers on FMP:

      Create an account for free with Findmypast to discover your family history and build a family tree. Search birth records, census data, death records and more.
      Elizabeth
      Research Interests:
      England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
      Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

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      • #23
        Thank you Elizabeth! I think the wills will be a good guide. Now I know that the 73 year old Joseph was a farmer. If Elizabeth's father really was an office clerk, he possibly would have left a will, unless he'd fallen on hard times. Elizabeth marrying a Sawyer, would that seem she was marrying slightly 'beneath her class'? It doesn't quite gel for me. I'll have a proper study of the will indexes, the more I look at it, the more I feel there is an error on the marriage document. Typical, my brick wall, my only clue, and it doesn't pan out! The wall remains?!

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        • #24
          I don't know if this is going to be your family, Lena, but all you can do is to go through an elimination process. Hopefully you will get there in the end.

          There was a son of this family, Joe France, who married a woman called Violetta. He also died relatively young and his probate is on Ancestry too.



          He was also a grocer. I would have expected his sister to have known this occupation.
          Elizabeth
          Research Interests:
          England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
          Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

          Comment


          • #25
            One of the children, Fanny, born 1862, is in the non-conformist births:

            Elizabeth
            Research Interests:
            England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
            Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

            Comment


            • #26
              Yes, there doesn't seem to be an easy answer. Elizabeth would surely know her father's occupation, unless he died when she was young, and the rest of the family never mentioned it - or she was an orphan?! Still doesn't explain why I cannot find her in censuses with a good match to her later censuses, to her birth year and location. Oh well, maybe I'll stumble upon something in time.

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              • #27
                Don't forget that some people who were born illegitimate simply invented a father's name to put on the marriage certificate.

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                • #28
                  One of my ancestor's father had died when she was very young. When she married she gave his correct name but the occupation of 'nail maker'. In fact he had been a weaver and it was her grandfather (who lived to an old age so she knew) who was the nail maker.
                  Anne

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                  • #29
                    That's definitely something to keep in mind, Mary, but I'm so frustrated that there's no sign of her in censuses with her mother only, or a step-father etc.

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                    • #30
                      Good point, Anne. I guess the occupation could have been confused with another family member who was around, if her father wasn't. I found a Joseph France, a Commercial Agent, in the will index the other night, based in Dewsbury, but after a quick look I couldn't find a census match. He died in 1873, so there should be something to find. I'll go back to that now. I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this 'case'!

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                      • #31
                        Lena where did you find that will I cannot

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                        • #32
                          a possibility ,tried looking for a clerk instead of office clerk

                          10 Olive Street Liverpool

                          Joseph France Head Married Male 69 1792 Clerk Liverpool, Lancashire, England
                          Ann France Wife Married Female 41 1820 Cl Wife Wales
                          William F France Son - Male 13 1848 Brassfinisher Liverpool, Lancashire, England
                          James A France Son - Male 4 1857 Cl Son Liverpool, Lancashire, England
                          Maria A France Daughter Female 1 1860 Cl Dau Liverpool, Lancashire, England

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                          • #33
                            Here's the link to the will, Val. He may be a 'warehouse man' in census, but children were born a while before my Elizabeth. I'll have a look at that family in Liverpool, thank you. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Chrissie Smiff View Post
                              I couldn't find a birth with mmn Carr Val, but how about this for a theory?

                              Birth of Elizabeth France June quarter 1860 Huddersfield (Covers Honley) MMN Dyson.
                              Marriage of Joseph France and Jane Dyson December 1853 Huddersfield.

                              Death of Joseph France - September 1868 Huddersfield aged 48 (he was 40 in 1861)
                              Death of Jane France - March 1871 Huddersield aged 37 (she was 27 in 1861)

                              1861 - I know Joseph is a Grocer but Elizabeth is only 10 months old and I have possible deaths for father and mother before 1871, so she may not have known what he did?


                              1871 - the children are with a widowed aunt Mary France (previously married to John France) -
                              http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...try&h=29275244
                              Originally posted by Lena Andrews View Post
                              I'm so frustrated that there's no sign of her in censuses with her mother only, or a step-father etc.
                              With this particular family it looks as though the parents had both died pre 1871 so she is with her aunt on 1871 census (who had probably taken over the business when Elizabeth's parents died). So you do have continuity - 1861 - 1911.

                              Joseph France Death 1868 Jul-Aug-Sep
                              Age at Death 48
                              Huddersfield Volume 9a Page 199

                              Jane France
                              Age 37
                              Birth Year abt 1834
                              Burial Date 8 Feb 1871
                              Burial Place Honley, St Mary with Brockholes, St George, Yorkshire, England

                              I cannot at the moment see another marriage for this Elizabeth in Huddesfield or a death.
                              You don't say what age is given for Elizabeth on her marriage cert.
                              Elizabeth would have been a minor at her marriage. Was she married by banns or by licence?
                              Last edited by Katarzyna; 27-03-17, 10:32.
                              Kat

                              My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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                              • #35
                                Forget all that !!! She is still single on 1911 Census. Back to the drawing board but at least that Elizabeth is ruled out for sure.

                                Elizabeth France
                                Age in 1911: 50
                                Estimated birth year: abt 1861
                                Relation to Head: Cousin
                                Gender: Female
                                Birth Place: Honley, Yorkshire, England
                                Civil Parish: Honley
                                Street address: 8 Southgate Honley Nr Huddersfield
                                Marital Status: Single

                                Sarah France 52
                                Elizabeth France 50
                                Kat

                                My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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                                • #36
                                  Thank you for following up that theory, Kat! Here's the jpeg I made from the PDF I got from the GRO of the marriage:....

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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Val wish Id never started View Post
                                    a possibility ,tried looking for a clerk instead of office clerk

                                    10 Olive Street Liverpool

                                    Joseph France Head Married Male 69 1792 Clerk Liverpool, Lancashire, England
                                    Ann France Wife Married Female 41 1820 Cl Wife Wales
                                    William F France Son - Male 13 1848 Brassfinisher Liverpool, Lancashire, England
                                    James A France Son - Male 4 1857 Cl Son Liverpool, Lancashire, England
                                    Maria A France Daughter Female 1 1860 Cl Dau Liverpool, Lancashire, England
                                    Val,I couldn't find a daughter Elizabeth for this couple. There is a link to Liverpool, so I'm keeping a lot of options open.

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                                    • #38
                                      Lena, How sure are you that you have the correct family on 1881 to 1911 censuses? Which one of Elizabeth and John's children is your direct ancestor and do you have their birth and marriage certificates?
                                      Kat

                                      My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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                                      • #39
                                        Hi again Kat,
                                        My direct ancestor is Elizabeth & John's son, William Evans (my Great-Grandfather). Here's his baptism, and marriage to my Great-Grandmother, Sarah Jane Lloyd, who's family is another kettle of frustrating fish, lol. William was a Baker, in Liverpool. I don't have William's birth cert, but it's in the index as:
                                        EVANS, WILLIAM FRANCE
                                        GRO Reference: 1888 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 504
                                        In the 1891 census William is there with his parents, mother born in Yorkshire, address 22 Scourfield Street, which matches the baptism address.

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                                        • #40
                                          I noted on the 1881 census that Kat posted on #6 that living next door to Elizabeth Evans was a James France also b Yorkshire. I wonder if this could be a relative

                                          In subsequent census the families both live in Scurfield Road West Derby

                                          James is married to Ann Walker as on the GRO index for the children

                                          There is a marriage for a James France to Ann Walker on the 19th May 1878 at All Souls Church, Manchester.
                                          James is a Blacksmith father name unfortunately John who was a Shopkeeper. Witnesses ?Fergus and Mary Sharpies.

                                          I can see a possible James with father John, ?Keeper mother Eliza in 1861 living in Warrington.

                                          John 32 Huddersfield, ?Keeper
                                          Eliza 34 Stalybridge
                                          James 9 Huddersfield
                                          Martha 6 Huddersfield
                                          Elizabeth 4 Stalybridge
                                          Christopher 2 Warrington

                                          Reg district for Stalybridge is Aston under Lyme


                                          From looking at the GRO the mother is Eliza Charlesworth who marries a John France in 1850 Oldham, Lancs. An Eliza dies in 1864 Warrington

                                          The 1871 has John France with Ellen wife b 1817 Cheshire. Children include James b Huddersfield and Elizabeth

                                          John 42 Yorkshire Storekeeper
                                          Ellen 54 Appleton, Cheshire
                                          James 18 Yorkshire
                                          Elizabeth 14 Warrington
                                          Christopher 12
                                          John 8

                                          Vera
                                          Last edited by vera2013; 29-03-17, 04:27.

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