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Untraceable Father on Marriage Cert
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Elizabeth
Research Interests:
England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)
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Thank you Elizabeth! I think the wills will be a good guide. Now I know that the 73 year old Joseph was a farmer. If Elizabeth's father really was an office clerk, he possibly would have left a will, unless he'd fallen on hard times. Elizabeth marrying a Sawyer, would that seem she was marrying slightly 'beneath her class'? It doesn't quite gel for me. I'll have a proper study of the will indexes, the more I look at it, the more I feel there is an error on the marriage document. Typical, my brick wall, my only clue, and it doesn't pan out! The wall remains?!
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I don't know if this is going to be your family, Lena, but all you can do is to go through an elimination process. Hopefully you will get there in the end.
There was a son of this family, Joe France, who married a woman called Violetta. He also died relatively young and his probate is on Ancestry too.
He was also a grocer. I would have expected his sister to have known this occupation.Elizabeth
Research Interests:
England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)
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Elizabeth
Research Interests:
England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)
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Yes, there doesn't seem to be an easy answer. Elizabeth would surely know her father's occupation, unless he died when she was young, and the rest of the family never mentioned it - or she was an orphan?! Still doesn't explain why I cannot find her in censuses with a good match to her later censuses, to her birth year and location. Oh well, maybe I'll stumble upon something in time.
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Good point, Anne. I guess the occupation could have been confused with another family member who was around, if her father wasn't. I found a Joseph France, a Commercial Agent, in the will index the other night, based in Dewsbury, but after a quick look I couldn't find a census match. He died in 1873, so there should be something to find. I'll go back to that now. I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this 'case'!
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a possibility ,tried looking for a clerk instead of office clerk
10 Olive Street Liverpool
Joseph France Head Married Male 69 1792 Clerk Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Ann France Wife Married Female 41 1820 Cl Wife Wales
William F France Son - Male 13 1848 Brassfinisher Liverpool, Lancashire, England
James A France Son - Male 4 1857 Cl Son Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Maria A France Daughter Female 1 1860 Cl Dau Liverpool, Lancashire, England
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Here's the link to the will, Val. He may be a 'warehouse man' in census, but children were born a while before my Elizabeth. I'll have a look at that family in Liverpool, thank you. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true
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Originally posted by Chrissie Smiff View PostI couldn't find a birth with mmn Carr Val, but how about this for a theory?
Birth of Elizabeth France June quarter 1860 Huddersfield (Covers Honley) MMN Dyson.
Marriage of Joseph France and Jane Dyson December 1853 Huddersfield.
Death of Joseph France - September 1868 Huddersfield aged 48 (he was 40 in 1861)
Death of Jane France - March 1871 Huddersield aged 37 (she was 27 in 1861)
1861 - I know Joseph is a Grocer but Elizabeth is only 10 months old and I have possible deaths for father and mother before 1871, so she may not have known what he did?
1871 - the children are with a widowed aunt Mary France (previously married to John France) -
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...try&h=29275244Originally posted by Lena Andrews View PostI'm so frustrated that there's no sign of her in censuses with her mother only, or a step-father etc.
Joseph France Death 1868 Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death 48
Huddersfield Volume 9a Page 199
Jane France
Age 37
Birth Year abt 1834
Burial Date 8 Feb 1871
Burial Place Honley, St Mary with Brockholes, St George, Yorkshire, England
I cannot at the moment see another marriage for this Elizabeth in Huddesfield or a death.
You don't say what age is given for Elizabeth on her marriage cert.
Elizabeth would have been a minor at her marriage. Was she married by banns or by licence?Last edited by Katarzyna; 27-03-17, 09:32.Kat
My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012
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Forget all that !!! She is still single on 1911 Census. Back to the drawing board but at least that Elizabeth is ruled out for sure.
Elizabeth France
Age in 1911: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation to Head: Cousin
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Honley, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Honley
Street address: 8 Southgate Honley Nr Huddersfield
Marital Status: Single
Sarah France 52
Elizabeth France 50Kat
My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012
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Originally posted by Val wish Id never started View Posta possibility ,tried looking for a clerk instead of office clerk
10 Olive Street Liverpool
Joseph France Head Married Male 69 1792 Clerk Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Ann France Wife Married Female 41 1820 Cl Wife Wales
William F France Son - Male 13 1848 Brassfinisher Liverpool, Lancashire, England
James A France Son - Male 4 1857 Cl Son Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Maria A France Daughter Female 1 1860 Cl Dau Liverpool, Lancashire, England
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Lena, How sure are you that you have the correct family on 1881 to 1911 censuses? Which one of Elizabeth and John's children is your direct ancestor and do you have their birth and marriage certificates?Kat
My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012
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Hi again Kat,
My direct ancestor is Elizabeth & John's son, William Evans (my Great-Grandfather). Here's his baptism, and marriage to my Great-Grandmother, Sarah Jane Lloyd, who's family is another kettle of frustrating fish, lol. William was a Baker, in Liverpool. I don't have William's birth cert, but it's in the index as: In the 1891 census William is there with his parents, mother born in Yorkshire, address 22 Scourfield Street, which matches the baptism address.
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I noted on the 1881 census that Kat posted on #6 that living next door to Elizabeth Evans was a James France also b Yorkshire. I wonder if this could be a relative
In subsequent census the families both live in Scurfield Road West Derby
James is married to Ann Walker as on the GRO index for the children
There is a marriage for a James France to Ann Walker on the 19th May 1878 at All Souls Church, Manchester.
James is a Blacksmith father name unfortunately John who was a Shopkeeper. Witnesses ?Fergus and Mary Sharpies.
I can see a possible James with father John, ?Keeper mother Eliza in 1861 living in Warrington.
John 32 Huddersfield, ?Keeper
Eliza 34 Stalybridge
James 9 Huddersfield
Martha 6 Huddersfield
Elizabeth 4 Stalybridge
Christopher 2 Warrington
Reg district for Stalybridge is Aston under Lyme
From looking at the GRO the mother is Eliza Charlesworth who marries a John France in 1850 Oldham, Lancs. An Eliza dies in 1864 Warrington
The 1871 has John France with Ellen wife b 1817 Cheshire. Children include James b Huddersfield and Elizabeth
John 42 Yorkshire Storekeeper
Ellen 54 Appleton, Cheshire
James 18 Yorkshire
Elizabeth 14 Warrington
Christopher 12
John 8
VeraLast edited by vera2013; 29-03-17, 03:27.
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