Looking for a Marriage, - help please!

[vera2013]

Hello Holly

I saw those records. Can't understand why the church don't have a record.

Did you ever find Margaret Rees in 1891. Wonder if she was working away and she settled in Swansea with William J after the marriage

I have been looking at a Preston born William J whose father was a long serving soldier from Co Antrim but that's a long way from Manchester. Mother boarded for years with other families and then disappears in 1881 having had two more children.
Only looking at this because the William, Mason possibly does not exist.

Vera

[Holly]

Hello Vera,

Many thanks for looking.

Margaret Rees was Born in Swansea on the 6th November 1866, at 18 Welcome Street. Her parents were Evan and Margaret Rees, both Born Swansea.

Margaret Rees, (My Grandmother) appears twice on the 1891 Census for Swansea(!) Once with her Parents, and also as a Domestic Servant at Northampton Villas, Swansea. (The Address on her Marriage Cert). I suspect that she met William James Wilson while she was in Service, - perhaps he painted the house?

William James Wilson gives his Address on the Marriage Cert as 'Lower Oxford Street, Swansea'. I went right through the 1891 Census for Swansea looking for him, but he doesn't seem to be on that, (or any of the earlier Censuses). The Banns for the Marriage were destroyed in the Swansea Blitz during WW2, but they probably wouldn't have given any further info...

I too have looked at Margaret Wilson, (Née Nesbit) Married to Thomas Wilson, Soldier, with son William James Wilson. I suspect she disappears because Thomas Wilson was Posted Overseas.

I have (over the years) looked at most of the William James/Just William Wilsons Born Lancashire 1857 - 1861, but found nothing definate.

A name change seems the only logical explanation, - unless William James Wilson spent a long time away in The Merchant Navy for example. (Of his 6 sons, 4 spent time in The Merchant Navy).

It's pretty hopeless really:-(((

Holly.

[Holly]

I have the same sort of problem for someone in my step daughter's tree who gives her maiden name on a birth cert and does not appear to exist before she is seen in the 1911 census!!

What I did was identify all the people with the same name born in the same year and district and printed that out. I then systematically searched for the names in the census, deaths or marriages to eliminate them. I also took the list of names from ancestry, FMP and freeBMD to ensure none were missed.

The birth place Manchester covers a range of districts so it is slightly more complicated for you in that regard. Also you might need to look at all those who do not have the middle name of James as well.

Using the GRO index I would start with all those who don't have a mother's maiden name showing as that would cover all illegitimate births. I would then check all the W J Wilson names and finally all the William only names.

Using the mother's maiden name you could also check for marriages to William Wilson to see if that gave anything.

Good luck.

Margaret

Thanks Margaret.

Looking at the GRO Index, - there is no Entry for a William James Wilson, Born Manchester 1860/'62.
Searching by just William Wilson brings up:

Results:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
WILSON, WILLIAM HENSHAW Order
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 220
WILSON, WILLIAM THROUP Order
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 190
WILSON, WILLIAM - Order
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 118
WILSON, WILLIAM WILSON Order
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 300
WILSON, WILLIAM GERRARD Order
GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 140
WILSON, WILLIAM QUINN Order
GRO Reference: 1860 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 232
WILSON, WILLIAM GUN Order
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 128
WILSON, WILLIAM BENSON Order
GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 309
WILSON, WILLIAM MCDONALD Order
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 217
WILSON, WILLIAM ARCHIBALD MAHEOR Order
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 344
WILSON, WILLIAM FREDERICK HARRISON Order
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 189
WILSON, WILLIAM HENRY HAGARTY Order
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 207
WILSON, WILLIAM HENRY NOONNAN Order
GRO Reference: 1860 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 198
WILSON, WILLIAM HENRY CARTLEDGE Order
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 125
WILSON, WILLIAM RENDLE SANDY Order
GRO Reference: 1861 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 314
WILSON, WILLIAM SAMUEL THOMPSON Order
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 157

I have already ruled quite a few of them out...

It's annoying that you can't search without a Surname!

Holly.

[vera2013]

Thanks Holly

I think the burial record refers to the parish of Kingsbury (St Andrew). Possibly buried elsewhere. ?Alperton

A Margaret Nisbet married a Thomas Wilson, Soldier in 1860 Preston St John. The only military record likely I can see is a long serving soldier who was discharged 1876 following the end of his contract after 20 years service. He was planning to return to Antrim. Needs a bit more digging. Never found his signing up record which should include his next of kin but maybe not.

Vera

[Sylvia C]

Sometimes parents decided to change the name of the baby after s/he had been registered, either by adding another forename OR even giving the child another forename entirely. So one finds a baptism under one name but then there's difficulty in finding the registration.

I have several in my various families where there is only one name on the registration but 2 or more on future censuses for what has to be the same child (no baptisms yet found).

I know this doesn't really help :(


But could he have been registered as James and William added later, either at baptism or merely by usage????

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Never say never! It took me about 25 years to unravel the origins of a gt-gt grandmother who married as Sarah Holt, spinster, daughter of George Kirby. Unfortunately her marriage was the only occasion in her life on which she used the surname Holt. I followed two local Sarah Holts, but in the end, neither of them could have been my ancestress - one was still single in the census following my Sarah's marriage and I eventually found the burial of the second Sarah Holt, aged 16. In the meantime, I continued to build up a detailed family tree for the local Holt family, but couldn't place my Sarah.
The witnesses at Sarah's marriage had been a Mrs Esther Fenton and her son - according to secondary sources this lady had been Esther Hough before her marriage to Mr Fenton. Fast forward a decade and I was able to read the actual marriage entry for Mr Fenton and Esther - her surname had been Hought, (*thinks* sounds like Holt) this spurred me on to investigate further the one Holt sister (Ann) who was still a mystery. Ann had married a Mr Watson, had two children with him before he disappeared, and then had three further Watson children, including a Sarah, whose year and place of birth matched my ancestress. Ann Watson (nee Holt) eventually married again to Mr Kell and in 1841 she, husband and all her children were recorded as Kell. By 1851 Ann had died, but daughter Sarah was keeping house for step-father, recorded as Sarah Watson!
It would seem that when she married, she didn't want to use the surname of either of her mother's husbands as neither was her father, so used Holt, the maiden name of her mother. (During a general PR sweep, I'd found the bp of a Sarah Watson right year and place of birth decades ago, but had never been able to link it to my Sarah.) I'd kept every bit of Holt info I'd found over the years and once I'd found out the exact surname of the marriage witness (Sarah's aunt, who was also a resident of the place where Sarah & the groom lived at the time of the marriage) it all fell into place.
So, my advice would be explore ALL avenues, keep notes of all findings, draw up mini trees for all personnel investigated, keep checking parish registers, and just keep on coming back to it from time to time. Your ancestor had to be born somewhere and at sometime - in these cases, it's usually not with the expected name and it's just getting that lucky break.

Jay

[JudithM]

A few years back, I thought I had made a breakthrough when I discovered London Burial Records for Margaret Wilson (1866 - 1934) and William James Wilson. It said that they were Buried at St Andrews, Kingsbury, (Near Wembley). I was hoping for Headstones! (Ideally giving a Birthplace for WJ Wilson:-) I phoned and then wrote to the Church/emailed a Church Warden, - but they had no record of these Burials:-( So is Ancestry wrong? I don't know...

Holly:-(

Hello Holly

I saw those records. Can't understand why the church don't have a record.

Vera

As Ancestry has the burial register online it must have been deposited at the London Metropolitan Archive, therefore the church would no longer have the register. Not all churches keep records of headstones or churchyard layout so not surprising that the church warden could give no extra information.

[Darksecretz]

he might have been registered as James William Wilson, I have quite a few of my relatives that swapped their names about, some even dropping their middle/forenames altogether.

[Darksecretz]

there is this though:

Name: James William Wilson
MMN WILSON
Registration Year: 1859
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 138

do you know when his birthday was?

[margaretmarch]

Thanks Margaret.

Looking at the GRO Index, - there is no Entry for a William James Wilson, Born Manchester 1860/'62.
Searching by just William Wilson brings up:

Results:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
WILSON, WILLIAM HENSHAW Order
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 220
WILSON, WILLIAM THROUP Order
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 190
WILSON, WILLIAM - Order
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 118
WILSON, WILLIAM WILSON Order
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 300
WILSON, WILLIAM GERRARD Order
GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 140
WILSON, WILLIAM QUINN Order
GRO Reference: 1860 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 232
WILSON, WILLIAM GUN Order
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 128
WILSON, WILLIAM BENSON Order
GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 309
WILSON, WILLIAM MCDONALD Order
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 217
WILSON, WILLIAM ARCHIBALD MAHEOR Order
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 344
WILSON, WILLIAM FREDERICK HARRISON Order
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 189
WILSON, WILLIAM HENRY HAGARTY Order
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 207
WILSON, WILLIAM HENRY NOONNAN Order
GRO Reference: 1860 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 198
WILSON, WILLIAM HENRY CARTLEDGE Order
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 125
WILSON, WILLIAM RENDLE SANDY Order
GRO Reference: 1861 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 314
WILSON, WILLIAM SAMUEL THOMPSON Order
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 157

I have already ruled quite a few of them out...

It's annoying that you can't search without a Surname!

Holly.

There are other Registration Districts such as Chorlton and Barton upon Irwell that are all in Manchester if anyone was to ask where you were born by the town rather than parish so you need to check them also. There may be others but those are 2 I know for definite cover addresses in central and and northern Manchester.

For example from GRO index

William James Wilson 1860 +/- 2 years Chorlton District none found

WILSON, WILLIAM MMN: -
GRO Reference: 1858 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 520
WILSON, WILLIAM MMN: BARROW
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 606
WILSON, WILLIAM MMN: -
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 487

Barton no William James 1860 +/- 2 years
WILSON, WILLIAM MMN: BOARDMAN
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in BARTON UPON IRWELL Volume 08C Page 475

Margaret

[Sylvia C]

Margaret is quite correct ..............

My mother's family all came from the Manchester area (I was born in Oldham), and they will say Manchester on censuses, but births and baptisms can be all over the place ......... there are a lot of Registration districts that fall under the mantle of "Manchester", eg Prestwich, Salford, in addition to the 2 that Margaret mentioned.

I always look on lancs bmd ....... although there do seem to be some gaps in those records.

It might also be worth looking at lancs opc to see if there are any possible baptisms.

[margaretmarch]

Margaret is quite correct ..............

My mother's family all came from the Manchester area (I was born in Oldham), and they will say Manchester on censuses, but births and baptisms can be all over the place ......... there are a lot of Registration districts that fall under the mantle of "Manchester", eg Prestwich, Salford, in addition to the 2 that Margaret mentioned.

I always look on lancs bmd ....... although there do seem to be some gaps in those records.

It might also be worth looking at lancs opc to see if there are any possible baptisms.

I was born in Hulme, Manchester and the district for that was Chorlton on Medlock but of course I just say Manchester!

Margaret

[Sylvia C]

.......... I say either Oldham or "near Manchester"

....... and Oldham is now part of Greater Manchester! But that happened years after I left .

[Guest]

Western Daily Press 7 Mar 1888.JPG

could just be a coincidence ,they are bankruptcys

[Guest]

1891 William surname missing but it says painter, although I think its Printer see what you think

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1891%2f0022441159

[vera2013]

Holly

Did you ever contact other churches for the burial place of your grandparents. I see the Ancestry transcription for your grandmother Margaret is taken from the parish record of burials for Neasden cum Kingsbury. At that time the parish church was St Catherine's, at Dollis Hill. The new St Andrews, Kingsbury was built around 1934 so maybe not ready for services and burials in the churchyard. It then became the parish church for Kingsbury.

As you say there maybe no inscription but would be nice to know where they lay.

Vera

[margaretmarch]

.......... I say either Oldham or "near Manchester"

....... and Oldham is now part of Greater Manchester! But that happened years after I left .

I think that Oldham was historically a separate town as such but the areas cover by say the Chorlton Registration District are areas like Gorton, have not really ever had their own separate identity as towns.

Margaret

[margaretmarch]

1891 William surname missing but it says painter, although I think its Printer see what you think

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/recor...1%2f0022441159

Looks like the occupation is Printer and is mis-transcribed as Painter.

Margaret

[Darksecretz]

There are quite a few WILLSON spellings too..

I have been trying to see if I can spot him in the census, but not having much luck!..

[Darksecretz]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18500[/ATTACH]

could just be a coincidence ,they are bankruptcys

have you explored this any further? I don't know where to look for Bankruptcy notifications.