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  • #21
    You are misunderstanding me. I put forward Thomas Mitchell Eccles as being the only candidate I could find to be John William,s father.

    You may find some info about his alleged father in the a admissions book for Fulwood Workhouse as I am sure this is the same JWE as the one baptised in February. He may have been baptised twice because his mother was too I'll to say whether he had already been baptised - workhouses were dead keen on baptism!

    OC

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    • #22
      Mary cannot be the child of William Thomas Eccles and Jane Nichols as they married in 1888 and were aged 25 and 24. They were the parents of John William Eccles born in 1891 though.

      OC

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
        Mary cannot be the child of William Thomas Eccles and Jane Nichols as they married in 1888 and were aged 25 and 24. They were the parents of John William Eccles born in 1891 though.

        OC
        OC i really need to read my notes better !!!! Mary was the SISTER of William Thomas.

        Comment


        • #24
          I can find a William Thomas, son of William and Ann Edmondson, but they don't have a daughter Mary, or I can find a William, son of William and Ann (Alston) but their daughter is called Mary Ann!

          How do you know that William Thomas and Mary were brother and sister, please?

          OC

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          • #25
            OC,

            This is the info i have.
            William Thomas Eccles B 1863 & Sister Mary Jane B 1868 (+ other siblings) parents Michael Eccles B 1838 Married to Charlotte Winch B 1833. all born Lancashire.

            Andrew

            Comment


            • #26
              I am very tempted to think that someone couldn't spell Michael and rendered it Mitchell instead!

              I am not convinced these are the right people anyway as this family is from Sefton not Preston.

              Who brought up John William Eccles? Do you have him on census?

              OC

              Comment


              • #27
                No, something wrong somewhere.

                John William Eccles, born and died 1891. His parents were William Thomas Eccles and Jane Nichols who married in 1888. William said his father was also called William NOT MICHAEL. So, if Mary was a sister of William Thomas Eccles then her father would be William too, not Michael.

                OC

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                  No, something wrong somewhere.

                  John William Eccles, born and died 1891. His parents were William Thomas Eccles and Jane Nichols who married in 1888. William said his father was also called William NOT MICHAEL. So, if Mary was a sister of William Thomas Eccles then her father would be William too, not Michael.

                  OC
                  "Mitchell" is defiantly the name he took, even though it's not his real one, as he named his son after him.
                  Where are you getting your info from regards William Thomas etc?

                  Andrew

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I am using Lancsbmd, LAN - OPC and Freebmd.

                    Mitchell/ Michael are easy to confuse. But the Thomas Mitchell Eccles I found in 1833 seems a more likely bet to me than a Michael from a completely different area of Lancashire.

                    Do you have any certificates? What has made you think that Michael and Charlotte are the right people?

                    OC

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      This is what I did:

                      John William Eccles, born and died 1891. Mmn Nichols ( Lancsbmd) registered Trinity District Preston.
                      Died 1891 age 0, trinity Preston.
                      Baptised 4 Feb 1891 St Mary Preston, s/ o William Thomas Eccles and Jane. Weaver of 5 Caton St.

                      You say the above William Thomas is the brother of your Mary and she is the mother of your John William Eccles born 1894 in Preston.

                      William Thomas Eccles, 25, weaver, bachelor of 5 James St, father the late WILLIAM Eccles, weaver, to Jane Nichols, 24, weaver spinster of 4 Ephraim St, father John Nichols, cloth looker.28 April 1888 St Mary Preston. A witness is Frederick Eccles.

                      Baptism 21 March 1862 St John Preston, William Thomas Eccles son of William Eccles weaver and Ann of Mercer Street.
                      Registered 1862 on Lancsbmd mmn Edmondson.

                      William Eccles 21 bachelor, weaver of Ribbleton Lane, father the late William Eccles weaver, to Ann Edmondson, 20, weaver spinster of Almond St. Father John Edmondson shoemaker.

                      This couple have many children including William Thomas 1862 and Frederick b/d 1864, 1865 and 1867. This couple did NOT have a daughter called Mary. Lancsbmd and Lanopc.

                      OC

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                        This is what I did:

                        John William Eccles, born and died 1891. Mmn Nichols ( Lancsbmd) registered Trinity District Preston.
                        Died 1891 age 0, trinity Preston.
                        Baptised 4 Feb 1891 St Mary Preston, s/ o William Thomas Eccles and Jane. Weaver of 5 Caton St.

                        You say the above William Thomas is the brother of your Mary and she is the mother of your John William Eccles born 1894 in Preston.

                        William Thomas Eccles, 25, weaver, bachelor of 5 James St, father the late WILLIAM Eccles, weaver, to Jane Nichols, 24, weaver spinster of 4 Ephraim St, father John Nichols, cloth looker.28 April 1888 St Mary Preston. A witness is Frederick Eccles.

                        Baptism 21 March 1862 St John Preston, William Thomas Eccles son of William Eccles weaver and Ann of Mercer Street.
                        Registered 1862 on Lancsbmd mmn Edmondson.

                        William Eccles 21 bachelor, weaver of Ribbleton Lane, father the late William Eccles weaver, to Ann Edmondson, 20, weaver spinster of Almond St. Father John Edmondson shoemaker.

                        This couple have many children including William Thomas 1862 and Frederick b/d 1864, 1865 and 1867. This couple did NOT have a daughter called Mary. Lancsbmd and Lanopc.

                        OC
                        OC i accept that you are correct and my info is wrong so well done on that. Now the question is who are Mary Jane's parents???

                        Andrew

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Thomas Mitchell Eccles

                          Born 13 August, baptised 28 September 1835, parents Thomas Eccles and Jane. Chapel St Independent Blackburn. Lanopc.

                          Thomas Mitchell Eccles m Elizabeth Ann Ashton 1865 Blackburn St Mary. Lancsbmd.

                          Children born to Eccles/Ashton Lancsbmd and children baptised to Thomas Eccles and Ann, lanopc. More than one Thomas and Ann, so not easy to put the children into family groups. However, one Thomas is variously a water vbailiff etc so he MIGHT be described as a farmer? Need to see the family groups on census to be sure. One Thomas/ Ann couple do have a Mary, born 1865, but there is no farming connection that I can see.

                          Thomas Mitchell Eccles d 1919 aged 83 Blackburn.lancsbmd.

                          OC

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Andrew

                            How do you know she is Mary Jane? If the 1894 baptism is correct, her name is just Mary.

                            OC

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                            • #34
                              John William Eccles born 1894

                              Born 1894 registered Preston, mmn Eccles.
                              Registered Q1 GRO Preston 8e 605 no mmn given, suggests there is no father,s name on the certificate.

                              Baptised 1.
                              16 Feb 1894 St John Preston, child of Mary Eccles of Back Leeming Street.

                              Baptised 2.
                              3 August 1894 Christ Church Fulwood, child of Mary Eccles, abode Fulwood workhouse.

                              I feel these are baptisms for the same child as I cannot identify another John William Eccles in the same time frame.

                              OC

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Ah, I see you have already been given all this information and more on another forum.

                                OC

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                  John William Eccles born 1894

                                  Born 1894 registered Preston, mmn Eccles.
                                  Registered Q1 GRO Preston 8e 605 no mmn given, suggests there is no father,s name on the certificate.

                                  Baptised 1.
                                  16 Feb 1894 St John Preston, child of Mary Eccles of Back Leeming Street.

                                  Baptised 2.
                                  3 August 1894 Christ Church Fulwood, child of Mary Eccles, abode Fulwood workhouse.

                                  I feel these are baptisms for the same child as I cannot identify another John William Eccles in the same time frame.

                                  OC
                                  OC that would definatly point to my G/Grandfather being the father of JW and itlooks that Mary fell on hard times. Perhaps that's why he tried to hide his background. If Thomas Mitchell was the father of Mary, JW's grandfather, then that would explain where the name came from that he used as an alias?

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                    Ah, I see you have already been given all this information and more on another forum.

                                    OC
                                    Yes OC i have been using another forum as well but in my defense you have provided information that the others didn't and advanced my family knowledge and for that a big thanks. ;D

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by andrew193 View Post
                                      OC that would definatly point to my G/Grandfather being the father of JW and itlooks that Mary fell on hard times. Perhaps that's why he tried to hide his background. If Thomas Mitchell was the father of Mary, JW's grandfather, then that would explain where the name came from that he used as an alias?
                                      AS an aside to this it looks like, after JW was born, being a "fallen women" and with an illegitimate child she was shown the door and ended up in the workhouse. Have you any info on how long she was there? Also is she and/or her parents on the 1901 census?

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                        John William Eccles born 1894

                                        Born 1894 registered Preston, mmn Eccles.
                                        Registered Q1 GRO Preston 8e 605 no mmn given, suggests there is no father,s name on the certificate.

                                        Baptised 1.
                                        16 Feb 1894 St John Preston, child of Mary Eccles of Back Leeming Street.

                                        Baptised 2.
                                        3 August 1894 Christ Church Fulwood, child of Mary Eccles, abode Fulwood workhouse.

                                        I feel these are baptisms for the same child as I cannot identify another John William Eccles in the same time frame.

                                        OC
                                        OC is there any age given for Mary???

                                        Andrew

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Olde Crone,

                                          I have possible parents for Mary in the shape of MICHAEL ECCLES B in Ainsdale married to CHARLOTTE WINCH B Pontifract. They had 5 children including MARY (A or J depending on which census you read) who was born 1868 in Southport.
                                          In Lancs is there a marriage for Mary before 1894? If not then i'm thinking she is the likely mother for JOHN WILLIAM if she's unmarried.

                                          Andrew

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