Search for Grandfather's records.

[Elaine ..Spain]

What information are you trying to find when you suggest that the 1926 census may help.
Have you considered the 1939 Register for Ireland - would information from that be of help? You would need to make a FOI request via PRONI.

[Parker]

And it gets worse. I'm further informed that despite the 'early release' of the 1911 Census information, there is no intention to break the '100 year rule' concerning the 1921 Census. So there we go - another 4 years for GB&NI and another 10 years for Ireland. In an age where the principal social driver in journalism is the 'celeb cult', I wonder why we fret about the ID of our forbears in and out of marriage? Modern romantic literature and theatre revels in non-conformism, making such prudency damaging to truth.

[Mary from Italy]

Plenty of people who would have appeared in the 1921 census are still alive today.

Do you think our desire for information trumps their right to privacy?

[Olde Crone Holden]

I agree with Mary,s point and furthermore believe that a promise made at the time should be kept.

As someone on another forum said:

Would I like to see this census? Yes.
Should I be able to? No.

OC

[Parker]

Hello Mary. I feel that objections such as yours are misplaced: being a census subject is not like making a will or a statement under oath or a legal undertaking of personal privacy. Its an important contribution to help understand the fabric and true facts of national society. In Britain, that society believes itself to be open but let us not pretend that the 1921 information was not used, and used again, by government. It is of equal importance to let a population know about itself at a later stage - certainly within a generation. Release of census data can cause embarrassment - bigamy, previously unrecorded progeny - but after 25 years or so, such information tends to confirm, rather than reveal. Our 1921 ancestors did not feel their formally recorded presence was a private matter; the 100 year rule on census information release only came into being in 1966, we need note. So my view is that census privacy is a preference rather than a right and that the richness of census source information brings benefit in an age where the smallest and most insignificant of families and people can walk tall - the huge interest around the WW1 centenary 2014-18 and the popularity of the likes of Sebastian Faulks are testimony to this.

[Parker]

Hello old Crone. As I say to Mary above, there was no promise given for guaranteed privacy in 1921 - this was introduced only in 1966. You will have participated in a Census presumably? I have, and there is no element of secrecy involved - its all very straightforward and matter-of-fact. In fact, the participant feels cheated in not knowing the information gleaned at national level!

[Olde Crone Holden]

Parker

We have had this discussion many times before on this forum and I do not alter my view that the information given UNDER DURESS should remain private for 100 years. (It used to be for ever). Otherwise how do you ensure that people will tell the truth?

Census were taken for statistical purposes only, not for the amateur genealogist. We are lucky that we can see them at all, some countries destroy them as soon as the statistics have been compiled.

OC

[Parker]

Duress? Why duress? There has to be a commonly enforced social arrangement to ensure property occupants are at their normal abode at an agreed time. But duress? Hardly. My experience was a convivial gathering, with everyone trying to make the official recorder's life as easy as possible. 'Statistical purposes' is too general; from them we derive good evidence about marriage, birth rates, demography, racial origins, employment patterns, population density, gender and age. Now which of these need be kept from the public domain for more than a generation?

[margaretmarch]

Duress? Why duress? There has to be a commonly enforced social arrangement to ensure property occupants are at their normal abode at an agreed time. But duress? Hardly. My experience was a convivial gathering, with everyone trying to make the official recorder's life as easy as possible. 'Statistical purposes' is too general; from them we derive good evidence about marriage, birth rates, demography, racial origins, employment patterns, population density, gender and age. Now which of these need be kept from the public domain for more than a generation?

It is duress as there is a fine for non-completion of the census form!

None of the items you list have been kept from the public - what is kept private is names, relationships, occupations and more recently salaries. The statistical information from censuses is made available to anyone wanting it but the individual records are not.

Margaret

[Olde Crone Holden]

Duress as in threat of fine or imprisonment for non compliance.

None of the statistics need to be kept secret at all. Personal identifying information DOES need to be kept private. It may not bother you if the whole world knows sensitive information but there are many older people who are deeply distressed because vthey are illegitimate, for instance, and in my book, their feelings are more important than my wish to know where Aunty Maud was in 1971.

One of the many reasons this forum (FTF) was set up was because some of us were very concerned about the total lack of regard for people's privacy on some forums - very sensitive and personal information being bandied around about third parties with neither their knowledge or consent. It is why we have a 100 year rule on here and do not allow the names of possibly living people.That has never stopped us researching, it just keeps it discreet and private.


OC

[Parker]

There is a fine for speeding but do you therefore drive under duress? You're encouraged to be responsible, just as the census depends on communal sense of responsibility, in order to be as representative as organisationally possible. So duress does not feature.
Forgive the risk of tedium - I did not anticipate controversy trying to find out more about a grandfather - but one is handling an obverse coin. The reasons the state uses to justify non-disclosure are those that existing society needs and deserves to know. So relationships, occupations and salaries are mere grist to the mill - why the prudency? Guilt, shame, self-effacement might feature but together, they don't merit resistance. The truth will out, after all.

[Katarzyna]

Duress? Why duress? There has to be a commonly enforced social arrangement to ensure property occupants are at their normal abode at an agreed time. But duress? Hardly. My experience was a convivial gathering, with everyone trying to make the official recorder's life as easy as possible. 'Statistical purposes' is too general; from them we derive good evidence about marriage, birth rates, demography, racial origins, employment patterns, population density, gender and age. Now which of these need be kept from the public domain for more than a generation?

None of them you can read the report here

[Katarzyna]

There is a fine for speeding but do you therefore drive under duress? You're encouraged to be responsible, just as the census depends on communal sense of responsibility, in order to be as representative as organisationally possible. So duress does not feature.
Forgive the risk of tedium - I did not anticipate controversy trying to find out more about a grandfather - but one is handling an obverse coin. The reasons the state uses to justify non-disclosure are those that existing society needs and deserves to know. So relationships, occupations and salaries are mere grist to the mill - why the prudency? Guilt, shame, self-effacement might feature but together, they don't merit resistance. The truth will out, after all.

Yes the truth will out - eventually. I'm prepared to wait for the guilt, shame and self effacement that may feature in it for the sake of my own family's embarrassment - they DO merit resistance.

[Oakum Picker]

I'm not really sure what it is you are looking for but a start might be to send for your father's service record.

[margaretmarch]

There is a fine for speeding but do you therefore drive under duress? You're encouraged to be responsible, just as the census depends on communal sense of responsibility, in order to be as representative as organisationally possible. So duress does not feature.
Forgive the risk of tedium - I did not anticipate controversy trying to find out more about a grandfather - but one is handling an obverse coin. The reasons the state uses to justify non-disclosure are those that existing society needs and deserves to know. So relationships, occupations and salaries are mere grist to the mill - why the prudency? Guilt, shame, self-effacement might feature but together, they don't merit resistance. The truth will out, after all.

Well actually it is not necessarily the truth - it is what people tell the enumerator!

Those of us who have done a lot of research will tell you that there are many discrepancies in what people tell officialdom depending on what they thought the information would be used for and who might see it.

Margaret

[Olde Crone Holden]

It is not compulsory to drive, so no one drives under duress. If you CHOOSE to speed then you know what the consequences are. Again, it is not compulsory to speed.

You are lucky in that you will only have to wait four years for the 1921 census. I have had to wait 52 years!!!

Irish research is notoriously difficult but not impossible. We do have one or two members who are good at it and hopefully they will see your post.

OC

[Parker]

As I warned, this is not the sort of conversation I anticipated on this website. It seems to be an exchange within moderation. I remain positive that reality will surely persevere and information will flow freely. Indeed, for good or for bad, I sense that the gentle, maybe strong tide of digitalism will force hands. When this little frisson subdues, I'll resume my search for my grandfather...

[Caroline]

As I warned, this is not the sort of conversation I anticipated on this website. It seems to be an exchange within moderation. I remain positive that reality will surely persevere and information will flow freely. Indeed, for good or for bad, I sense that the gentle, maybe strong tide of digitalism will force hands. When this little frisson subdues, I'll resume my search for my grandfather...

I am not sure what you hoped for when registering with us. We are a discussion group of like minded people who try to help other people with their genealogy research. Thus you are almost bound to find discussions going on and of course it is moderated according to our our Terms and Conditions of Privacy and good manners.

Had you noticed from the 1911 links that Elaine found that James was born in England? (Tick on show all information).

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Louth/Dundalk_Urban_No__4/Quay_Street/578862/

[margaretmarch]

If you obtain the marriage certificate for James and Rachel you will find out their fathers's names with occupations and then you can hopefully find James in England in a census with his family before marriage.

Margaret

[Elaine ..Spain]

If you obtain the marriage certificate for James and Rachel you will find out their fathers's names with occupations and then you can hopefully find James in England in a census with his family before marriage.

Marriage certificate is online, Margaret. Post #10.