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John Brett Roscorla

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  • #21
    There is a male birth in 1st QTR 1952 of a W Roscorla mmn Smith could the Mother have the Smith birth name instead of the C.... Surname ? just clutching at straws here, also the middle name Brett could be of significance ? when changing by Deed poll a possible Fathers surname perhaps.

    Edna

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    • #22
      Originally posted by clematised View Post
      There is a male birth in 1st QTR 1952 of a W Roscorla mmn Smith could the Mother have the Smith birth name instead of the C.... Surname ? just clutching at straws here, also the middle name Brett could be of significance ? when changing by Deed poll a possible Fathers surname perhaps.

      Edna
      I think it's smith .. here is the signature



      I did think maybe his father was a Brett Roscorla - but if i remember my search didn't find a results .. i'm assuming giving me the same middle name as him was a new thing.

      I'm going to continue my search!

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      • #23
        I've received your pm giving the name of the sister/half sister R, born in 1956. Her birth reference shows her mmn as UNWIN and her parents were married in 1941. Father's name begins with E but it's not Edgar! There's a big muddle here. Perhaps Mr ER fathered John, then went back to his wife and they had a child in 1956....15 years after they married, how odd. Or perhaps Mrs ER, mn UNWIN, parted from Mr Roscorla and had a child with someone else in 1956.

        OC

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        • #24
          I'm not going to lie OC but this is starting to baffle my head!
          So, i think the next logical step would be to go to NA and see if there was a deed poll for John & see what he changed his name from.

          At this point, I would agree that either R.Roscorla or E.Roscorla had moved on with their life and produced John.
          Until i get myself to NA we'd just be guessing :/

          Rosko

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          • #25
            We have to check every avenue when we can not be certain of the truth and sometimes make believe trying to fit in what we know and what we suspect but until we can fit it together and prove something someday without the Parents it is all make believe, it took me about eight years to find my Gt GFs real birthplace until one day a piece of the jigsaw fitted and everything else fell into place. I found his Father died a few days before his birth, his Mother never remarried, she had a first name that was prime for mistranscription but eventually through the help of a friend we managed to follow her through to her death.
            I hope you can have the patience to follow it through.

            Edna

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            • #26
              Rosko

              What was John's mother's first name, as knowing that will help to rule out some Roscorla marriages.

              It's niggling me that John went to the trouble of changing his name by Deed Poll, yet left the name of his father blank on his MC. Unless of course the vicar knew John was illegitimate and decided to make a point of it.

              OC
              Last edited by Olde Crone Holden; 14-02-16, 09:31.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                I've received your pm giving the name of the sister/half sister R, born in 1956. Her birth reference shows her mmn as UNWIN and her parents were married in 1941. Father's name begins with E but it's not Edgar! There's a big muddle here. Perhaps Mr ER fathered John, then went back to his wife and they had a child in 1956....15 years after they married, how odd. Or perhaps Mrs ER, mn UNWIN, parted from Mr Roscorla and had a child with someone else in 1956.

                OC
                Both parties are deceased, so I can add their names:
                Eric Roscorla born July 1913
                Rose E Unwin born May 1914
                mar Bath 1941 Eric Roscorla & Rose E Unwin
                The only birth in ENGLAND/WALES of a child to the couple is the one in 1956, also Bath
                Rose Emily S Roscorla died Bath 1990
                Eric Roscorla died Bath 1996

                All very odd and not really helpful - am I correct in thinking all we can deduce about John (unless the deed poll was to include the name Brett rather than alter surname, which I think unlikely) is that his mother's surname was NOT Roscorla when his birth was registered?

                Jay
                Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 14-02-16, 11:15.
                Janet in Yorkshire



                Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by rosko View Post
                  I'm not going to lie OC but this is starting to baffle my head!
                  So, i think the next logical step would be to go to NA and see if there was a deed poll for John & see what he changed his name from.

                  At this point, I would agree that either R.Roscorla or E.Roscorla had moved on with their life and produced John.
                  Until i get myself to NA we'd just be guessing :/

                  Rosko
                  It may be worth a phone call to the NA to ask how much for a researcher to check the record for you as it may well be cheaper than the cost of getting there yourself.

                  Edna

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    There is also a likely birth of a son in 1949 in Bath with the surname mis-transcribed. He is now married and still showing with family in .192 free search.
                    Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                    • #30
                      JAY

                      I did a search for all John anyone born Q1 1953 and tried to pick out any relevant mother's maiden names but I got nowhere with that. I used Freebmd though and perhaps not everything is transcribed for 1953 yet.

                      Yes, I too only found one birth within the Eric/Rose marriage and I suspect that she (R, the half sister) is probably not a child of Eric. One child after 15 years of marriage is suspicious, in my mind!

                      OC

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                        JAY

                        I did a search for all John anyone born Q1 1953 and tried to pick out any relevant mother's maiden names but I got nowhere with that. I used Freebmd though and perhaps not everything is transcribed for 1953 yet.

                        Yes, I too only found one birth within the Eric/Rose marriage and I suspect that she (R, the half sister) is probably not a child of Eric. One child after 15 years of marriage is suspicious, in my mind!

                        OC
                        Agree, OC.
                        As the Eric/Rose marriage was during WW2, I looked for Roscorla in Armed forces overseas & British nationals overseas births, in case Mr Roscorla had remained in the forces post war and the family had had an overseas posting. Didn't come up with anything.

                        Perhaps John was Mr Roscorla's son, but not Rose's, so was registered with mother's surname, as yet unknown to us. He could have been brought up by/fostered out to a third party, who had the name Maynard.

                        It would be interesting to know who lived at that address in 1953 - Rosko, was John's address the same as the bride's, or did she have a different address?

                        jay
                        Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 14-02-16, 12:38.
                        Janet in Yorkshire



                        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Hi All,

                          Again thank you so much for your assistance with this brick wall.
                          My mom has given me a little bit more information, i'm not sure how relevant or of help it may be

                          Johns sister/half sister R. was actually given up by her mother, Jean. We're unsure of why or who to.
                          Johns dad went to prison - not sure when, where or why or what his actual name was

                          Did Johns dad have R. with Jean before he went to prison? Then she gave her up? Who knows!
                          R married a Mr Murphy ... so I'm gonna have a little look there, though i guess it won't be of much help to find out more about John but its something. My mom does have an address for R. so we're going to write to her, assuming she is still alive.

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                          • #33
                            Hi Jay,

                            They had two different addresses.

                            Rosko

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                            • #34
                              R had two sons called S & P
                              I can't name them as they may still be alive

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by rosko View Post
                                My mom has given me a little bit more information, i'm not sure how relevant or of help it may be

                                Johns sister/half sister R. was actually given up by her mother, Jean. We're unsure of why or who to.
                                Johns dad went to prison - not sure when, where or why or what his actual name was

                                Did Johns dad have R. with Jean before he went to prison? Then she gave her up? Who knows!
                                R married a Mr Murphy ... so I'm gonna have a little look there, though i guess it won't be of much help to find out more about John but its something. My mom does have an address for R. so we're going to write to her, assuming she is still alive.
                                I am getting really confused now Rosko.
                                Firstly - are we following the wrong family as I thought that the sister/half sister R had a mother named Rose but you say her name was Jean.
                                Secondly, you say that R married a Murphy but the R that we have been following appears to have married in 2003 to a man whose surname begins with B. I can't find a marriage for her to a Murphy at all.
                                Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Chrissie

                                  Now we know about the deed poll, I think we probably are following the wrong family unit. I don't think John's surname at birth registration would have been Roscorla, or there would have been no need for him to make the change. As the child usually takes the name of the mother, I don't think at the time of the birth she was named Roscorla either.

                                  I am having great difficulty trying to piece together all the other snippets of information, or perhaps unintentional mis-information.

                                  Rosko, do you know roughly which part of the country any of these people were born and when?

                                  Jay
                                  Janet in Yorkshire



                                  Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    I am confused too!

                                    Chrissie found another Roscorla/Unwin child, a boy born in 1949.(Mistranscribed as Roscoria). Then there is a daughter R, born in 1956, also mmn Rose Unwin - this cannot be Jean's child, unless she lied at registration and why would she do that? How come you have contact with R, if she was "given up"?

                                    I also realised that "His name was changed by Deed Poll" doesn't actually mean that JOHN changed it - far more likely his mother or father changed it for him. that makes a lot more sense to me.
                                    And - the Roscorla/Unwin marriage has been mistranscribed for Rose Unwin as "Roscoria" which does have an Italian sound to it.

                                    OC

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                                    • #38
                                      I haven't really managed to follow this thread very well, coming in this late, - I suspect I should have had to set up a list of the various snippets of info and try to link them together - but some of the posts suggest that this might not be that straightforward, either!

                                      Anyway...
                                      I have been having a play with the Wills database (https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar#calendar), to see if there are any ROSCORLA names linked to Birmingham. I have spotted one, so far:
                                      Leonard ROSCORLA, of 20 Mavis Rd, Northfield, Birmingham, d 27 June 1985, probate Birmingham 22 Nov, not exceeding £40k, (with a ref number).

                                      Some of the info there might be of use somewhere along the line?

                                      C
                                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        More info about that particular Leonard (I don't think I've seen it assembled anywhere earlier - apologies if I've missed something and this is a duplication...

                                        Leonard ROSCORLA d 1985q2 B'ham, DoB 6 Feb 1903.
                                        The only one that seems to fit that was b 1903q1 Redruth, and appears in 1911 as b in Hayle - but indexed as RESCORLA. However, he seems to have gone off to the USA, and got naturalised there. Nevertheless, that record's a DoB-fit for that death.

                                        I notice that a Leonard J ROSCORLA seems to have served as a Private with the Royal Warwickshire Regt in WW1.

                                        Christine
                                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I thought that we were following that family because the birth of the sister/half sister had been found. Not because of 'John'. However, if her mother's name was Jean it doesn't look as though it was the sister/half sister's birth now does it?
                                          Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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