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  • Jewish connection?

    I have traced my husband's line on the maternal side with great difficulty as his mother died when he was very young, father remarried and mother wasn't spoken about. Through the Salvation Army we located his cousin (who sadly now has dementia) and when we met up, some years ago, I discussed what HER knowledge was (their mothers were sisters). The one thing she threw up, when I mentioned that I had traced the Ryder side of the family (in Leeds) back to the sisters' grandfather, one George Harris Ryder, she said that as a child she had been snooping through her mother's belongings and found a paper with the name Lazarus on it. She was caught, and the next time she looked it was gone. I queried whether this was a forename, but she said no, his surname was Lazarus! I subsequently discovered a George Harris Lazarus. G H Ryder, on his marriage certificate (married Margaret Kennedy, also of Leeds) has his father as Harris Ryder (decd), and lo and behold G H Lazarus's father was Harris Lazarus. I haven't looked at this information for a long time, but have just read Jess Welsby's book The Daddy of all Mysteries, and it has really made me think. The Ryders came from Ireland, (Tipperary), so maybe there was an Irish/Eastern European link? When and why did the Lazarus family become Ryder? If anyone has any thoughts on where I might look I would be so grateful. My husband is now 77 and is not in the best of health, but he and his brother have expressed an interest in visiting Tipperary (if we can narrow it down a bit) but I need a bit more to go on to make it worth their while. Thank you in anticipation of any ideas. Colliemag

  • #2
    Hi and Welcome to the Forum Colliemag,
    You should be able to get lots of help and advice here from the Forum members some names you will recognise from the book and others maybe not mentioned but all the same you will get help. Wallaby's book was memorable for all of us who were involved in the threads here and also for other member's looking in and following them.
    Names were sometimes changed to Anglisize them possibly during war time but usually for reasons of wanting to simplify a name.
    Don't be afraid to ask a question as no question is a silly question to us as we have all asked them in our time of learning.

    Edna

    Comment


    • #3
      Hello Colliemag and welcome to the forum.

      George Harris LAZARUS was born in 1872 in Leeds. He married as George Harris RYDER in 1901 in Leeds. So he changed his name between 1872 and 1901. the usual reason for changing the name was so that a person did not sound Jewish - anti Semitism was on the increase at the turn of the century.

      The next logical step is to look for him on census, to see who he was with and what they were called and where they claim to have been born. I'm sorry, I don't have access to census but I'm sure someone else will be along to help in a minute!

      OC

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      • #4
        A shot in the dark to keep to one side for later!

        Morris LAZARUS m Betsy RIDER 1839 Leeds.

        OC

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello Colliemag,
          i have found a Harris Lazarus aged 1 in the 1841 census in Leeds along with his mother Betsy aged 30. (I think ages were often rounded to the next 5 in 1841 - someone else will confirm this, I'm sure!)
          I've also found extensive prison records on FindMyPast for this same Harris Lazarus where his name is recorded as Harris Ryder or Lazarus. A series of convictions at Leeds Borough sessions. NOK on pre-marriage convictions is Betsy Lazarus. Interestingly his religion varies from RC and then a change is recorded to Protestant in November 1866. His wife's name is recorded as Harriet. This tallies with an 1865 q4 Leeds marriage of a Harris Ryder to Harriet Elizabeth Wilson, vol 9b page 649.
          Mother Betsy was born in county according to 1841 but Harris wasn't. This might be where a Tipperary connection comes in but I haven't got time to pursue this any further at the moment...
          I will send you a private message shortly!

          Christine
          Last edited by Karamazov; 11-08-15, 22:13.
          Researching:
          HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

          Comment


          • #6
            To be able to send and receive private messages Colliemag you have to make ten pots in total so get posting anything here just to get to that number quickly

            Edna

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by clematised View Post
              To be able to send and receive private messages Colliemag you have to make ten pots in total so get posting anything here just to get to that number quickly

              Edna
              I think I've read in a thread just in the last day or two that you could send a reply to a PM without having posted 10 messages. Just can't remember where I read it! So give it a try Colliemag and see what happens?..
              Last edited by Karamazov; 11-08-15, 22:27.
              Researching:
              HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

              Comment


              • #8
                It will go to the Mods it happened a few days ago to a lady I sent a message to and her reply was picked up by Caroline, I hope she sees this tomorrow and quickly posts more messages.

                Edna

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by clematised View Post
                  It will go to the Mods it happened a few days ago to a lady I sent a message to and her reply was picked up by Caroline, I hope she sees this tomorrow and quickly posts more messages.

                  Edna
                  Well, however it happened, I got a reply from Colliemag to the private message within a quarter of an hour!

                  Christine
                  Researching:
                  HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Harris Lazarus's marriage to Harriet is on Ancestry, and his father is given as Maurice Lazarus, hawker.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This is a bit odd.

                      Morris Lazarus m Betsy Rider in 1839 at St Peter, Leeds.

                      I checked to see what denomination St Peter was, and it was the Anglican parish church of Leeds. BUT - it was completely demolished in 1838 and rebuilt in 1841....so how did they marry there in 1839?

                      I noticed there were a couple of Harris Lazarus, so the Lazarus/Rider marriage might be a red herring, but I don't think so.

                      Colliemag - how do you know the Ryders were from Ireland? Is it possible that Margaret Kennedy was the Irish link?

                      OC

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A Harris Ryder, 28, labourer and cloth finisher, is in jail in Portland, Dorset in 1871, His birthplace looks like Radford, Nottinghamshire.

                        Harris Lazarus gave the occupation cloth dresser when he married Harriet Wilson in 1865.

                        According to the criminal registers on FMP, Harris Lazarus or Ryder was convicted in 1866 and sent to Portland. I can't get the image to come up, though.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The marriage between Morris Lazarus and Betsy Rider is also on Ancestry.
                          Leeds Parish chuch, 3 April 1839, by banns.
                          Morris Lazarus, full age, bachelor, commercial traveller, York St., father Morris Lazarus, shopkeeper
                          Betsy Rider, full age, spinster, York St., father John Rider, husbandman
                          Witnesses Catherine McVey? and Rachel Emmett

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Censuses:

                            1841:
                            Living at Barrett's Yard, Leeds
                            Betsy Lazarus, 30, born in county
                            Harris Lazarus, 1, not born in county

                            1851:
                            Living at 25 Back George's Street, Leeds
                            Betsey Lazarus, head, married, 40, lodging house keeper, born Beverley, Yorks
                            Mary Lazarus, daughter, 11, scholar, born Leeds
                            Elizabeth Lazarus, daughter, 3 w?, born Leeds
                            Robert Farey, lodger, unmarried, 22, cloth dresser, born Selby, Yorks

                            1861:
                            Living at 17 Back High St., Leeds
                            Betsey Lazarus, head, widow, 49, nurse, born Belbbey, Yorks
                            Margaret Beadnell, daughter, unmarried, 29, general servant, born Leeds
                            John Beadnell, grandson, 3, born Leeds
                            Elizabeth Beadnell, granddaughter, 11m, born Leeds

                            1871:
                            Living at 15 Back High St., Leeds
                            Betsey Lazarus, head, widow, seamstress, born Bellerby, Yorks

                            Probable death for Betsy:

                            Deaths Dec 1874
                            LAZARUS Betsey 64 Leeds 9b 338

                            There's both a Beverley and a Bellerby in Yorkshire. Beverley is better known; I would guess her real birthplace was Bellerby, and the 1851 entry's an error.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Harris Ryder (aka Lazarus according to the Ancestry transcription, although I can't see the name Lazarus on the images) was convicted of larceny in 1866, sentenced to 7 years, and sent to Portland.

                              He was paroled on 6/12/1871, and on 11/12/1871 Jane Ann Lazarus, daughter of Harris (cloth finisher) and Harriet Lazarus of Nelson St., was baptised at St Peter's, Leeds. According to the register she was born on 11/10/1871, which is confirmed by the birth index.

                              Births Dec 1871
                              Lazarus Jane Ann Leeds 9b 403

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Baptism
                                24/10/1841 at St Peter's, Leeds
                                Mary Jane (born 11/10/1841) daughter of Maurice (traveller) and Betsy Lazarus of Templars Street.

                                Baptism
                                17/4/1851 at St Peter's, Leeds
                                Elizabeth Ann daughter of William (goldsmith) and Betsey Lazarus of Georges Street.

                                Marriage
                                14/9/1859 at St Peter's, Leeds
                                Mary Jane Lazarus, 18, spinster, Georges Street, father John Lazarus, hawker
                                John Francis Stow, 20, bachelor, cordwainer, Georges Street, father John Stow, butcher

                                Elizabeth Ann and Mary are presumably the two daughters living with Betsey in 1851. All the entries give different fathers' names, and Betsey's never living with Maurice on the censuses, so maybe they separated (I haven't found an obvious death for him yet).
                                Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15, 01:14.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Just to complicate matters:

                                  Baptism
                                  St Peter's, Leeds, 11/8/1833
                                  Margaret (born 12/8/1832) daughter of Robert (tailor) and Betsey Beadnell of St. Ann's Lane

                                  This is presumably the Margaret Beadnell who was living with Betsy in 1861.

                                  There's also a Rebecca baptised to the same couple in 1835.
                                  Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15, 01:19.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Mary from Italy View Post
                                    Censuses:

                                    1841:
                                    Living at Barrett's Yard, Leeds
                                    Betsy Lazarus, 30, born in county
                                    Harris Lazarus, 1, not born in county

                                    1851:
                                    Living at 25 Back George's Street, Leeds
                                    Betsey Lazarus, head, married, 40, lodging house keeper, born Beverley, Yorks
                                    Mary Lazarus, daughter, 11, scholar, born Leeds
                                    Elizabeth Lazarus, daughter, 3 w?, born Leeds
                                    Robert Farey, lodger, unmarried, 22, cloth dresser, born Selby, Yorks

                                    1861:
                                    Living at 17 Back High St., Leeds
                                    Betsey Lazarus, head, widow, 49, nurse, born Belbbey, Yorks
                                    Margaret Beadnell, daughter, unmarried, 29, general servant, born Leeds
                                    John Beadnell, grandson, 3, born Leeds
                                    Elizabeth Beadnell, granddaughter, 11m, born Leeds

                                    1871:
                                    Living at 15 Back High St., Leeds
                                    Betsey Lazarus, head, widow, seamstress, born Bellerby, Yorks

                                    Probable death for Betsy:

                                    Deaths Dec 1874
                                    LAZARUS Betsey 64 Leeds 9b 338

                                    There's both a Beverley and a Bellerby in Yorkshire. Beverley is better known; I would guess her real birthplace was Bellerby, and the 1851 entry's an error.
                                    DOH! I've just been typing all the above (other than your final para) - should have looked in again here before I started! Only slight discrepancy - Elizabeth Lazarus in 1851 may be 3 months?
                                    I'm a bit puzzled by the unmarried daughter Margaret with surname Beadnell in 1861.

                                    I found Moris (sic) Lazarus in 1841
                                    Living (presumably boarding) at Fletcher Street, Newcastle under Lyme
                                    Moris Lazarus, 30, traveller, born in F (meaning born in foreign parts according to the column heading)
                                    As were the three other travellers in the same household.

                                    I think this may well be where your possible Jewish connection comes in, given their names:
                                    Sampson Jacobs 65, Samuel Solomon 60, Wolf Marcus 35.

                                    No further definitive sign of Moris/Morris/Maurice as yet but presumably he died at some point between the 1851 and 1861 censuses.

                                    Christine

                                    PS looks like I've cross-posted with you again Mary in Italy. You must type faster than me!
                                    Last edited by Karamazov; 12-08-15, 01:28.
                                    Researching:
                                    HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      From familysearch:

                                      Name Betsey Rider
                                      Gender Female
                                      Christening Date 04 Jun 1811
                                      Christening Place SPENNITHORNE,YORK,ENGLAND
                                      Father's Name John Rider
                                      Mother's Name Ann

                                      Bellerby was part of the parish of Spennithorne at the time.
                                      So presumably Betsey and Robert Beadnell weren't married, or there was a marriage that I haven't found yet and she married Maurice under her maiden name (maybe because Robert was still alive). As she wasn't with Maurice in 1841, Harris was probably illegitimate, which is why he was known as Lazarus or Ryder.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Other baptisms:
                                        St Peter's, Leeds, 24/1/1870
                                        Thomas William Davy Lazarus (born Oct 1869), son of Harriet Lazarus, illegitimate, husband Harris Lazarus, cloth dresser, absent near 4 years

                                        St Peter's, Leeds, 8/6/1873
                                        George Harris Ryder Lazarus (born 10/10/1872), son of Harris Rider Lazarus and Harriet Lazarus of Nelson St. (can't read his occupation)

                                        St Bartholomew's, Armley, Leeds, 13/8/1876
                                        Mary Elizabeth daughter of Harriet Elizabeth Lazarus, married woman, abode Armley Gaol. The ceremony was performed by the prison chaplain.

                                        Poor Harriet, what an awful life she and the children must have had.
                                        Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15, 01:50.

                                        Comment

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