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  • #21
    Well done for finding Morris in 1841, Christine.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by clematised View Post
      It will go to the Mods it happened a few days ago to a lady I sent a message to and her reply was picked up by Caroline, I hope she sees this tomorrow and quickly posts more messages.

      Edna
      Not quite - this person had clicked on the email link to reply to the message instead of logging in and replying on the forum through Notifications. When this is done it goes to the Admin email Inbox where gets picked up by the Administrators.

      As you will have seen, they can reply to the messages received although their inbox space is limited until 10 posts are made....
      Caroline
      Caroline's Family History Pages
      Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
        This is a bit odd.

        Morris Lazarus m Betsy Rider in 1839 at St Peter, Leeds.

        I checked to see what denomination St Peter was, and it was the Anglican parish church of Leeds. BUT - it was completely demolished in 1838 and rebuilt in 1841....so how did they marry there in 1839?

        I noticed there were a couple of Harris Lazarus, so the Lazarus/Rider marriage might be a red herring, but I don't think so.

        Colliemag - how do you know the Ryders were from Ireland? Is it possible that Margaret Kennedy was the Irish link?

        OC
        Not really odd OC. I have a similar case in Doncaster where St George's was being rebuilt. During the rebuilding the church activities would have been held in some other temporary place such as a church hall but it would still have been called the same with the same clergy.
        Anne

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        • #24
          Thank you OC, I have all the census information, and his father Harris also appears to have changed his name to Ryder, but I can't find out where or when (or why!) I've looked on the censuses to see if there were any Ryders living nearby, and in one case George was lodging with a family and his name was Ryde. Very confusing. As the Ryders were from Ireland I'm wondering if George and his parents spent time in Ireland. I have certainly thought that about the Jewish name, but can't find where and when!! Thanks for your help, it's much appreciated.

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          • #25
            That's the link I wasn't sure of. I found a Betsy Lazarus on her own with a baby, Harris, on the 1841 census (I think) a few years ago, but couldn't find her husband. I think she was in Hull, but will check that. Yes, the Kennedys were certainly from Ireland, and thinking about it, I think that's why it was assumed that the Ryders were, but I only have what little bit my husband remembers from very early childhood. George Harris Ryder married Margaret Kennedy (B Leeds about 1879), and her parents were Edward and Mary, both from Ireland (Tipperary). Maybe that was the red herring. Thank you for that, Anne. Yes, it would still be the same diocese that the church was in so would prob be counted as the same church, even if married in an adjacent building.

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            • #26
              Colliemag

              Do you not think that Mary and Christine have solved the puzzle? I do!

              OC

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                Colliemag

                Do you not think that Mary and Christine have solved the puzzle? I do!

                OC
                Hi Colliemag,
                As you told me you had a FindMyPast sub, I have just sent you an email with all the links I found including the census records, assorted prison records and newspaper articles. I wondered if you had inadvertently missed all the posts on page 2 of this thread?

                As for the Lazarus/Ryder name "conundrum" - I doubt very much it was ever an official thing. I'd guess it was more likely a combination of trying to escape the long arm of the law and previous convictions being taken into account, and perhaps distancing himself from what seems to have been a chaotic home life. Possibly also an attempt to distance himself from a Jewish connection - from the 1841 census re his father Morris, the odds seem to be that Morris was Jewish (see post 18 above). I'm not a social historian, so can't say if this would have been a factor in 1850s/1860s Leeds.

                i wonder if anyone can find more on Morris's father, also Morris - the shopkeeper mentioned in Mary's post number 13?

                Christine
                Last edited by Karamazov; 12-08-15, 11:40.
                Researching:
                HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

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                • #28
                  I can't find Harriet Lazarus in the criminal records on Ancestry or FMP, so I don't know why she was in prison in 1876.

                  It looks as though she took up with a George Mann some time after she came out of prison, and had loads of children by him. They eventually married in 1896; unfortunately the image of the marriage isn't on Ancestry, because she got married in what I assume was the Register Office.

                  1896 marriages
                  Surname / Forename(s) / Surname / Forename(s) / Church/Register Office
                  LAZARUS / Harriet E / MANN / George / Leeds Registered Building / Leeds

                  Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15, 12:18.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Mary from Italy View Post
                    I can't find Harriet Lazarus in the criminal records on Ancestry or FMP, so I don't know why she was in prison in 1876.

                    It looks as though she took up with a George Mann some time after she came out of prison, and had loads of children by him. They eventually married in 1896; unfortunately the image of the marriage isn't on Ancestry, because she got married in what I assume was the Register Office.

                    Surname / Forename(s) / Surname / Forename(s) / Church/Register Office
                    LAZARUS / Harriet E / MANN / George / Leeds Registered Building / Leeds

                    http://www.yorkshirebmd.info/cgi/marrind.cgi
                    Could it be simply because she was in debt? There was something similar on the last series of WDYTYA where a mother and her children were in dire straights due to the debts of an absconding husband although if memory serves me correctly, they ended up in the workhouse rather than actual prison. There were debtor's prisons where families were together as per Dickens' 'Little Dorritt'.

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                    • #30
                      Censuses:

                      1881:
                      Living at 1 Amber St., Leeds
                      George Mann, head, married, 37, crabber at dye house, born Leeds
                      Harriet Mann, wife, married, 34, born Leeds
                      children Thomas 11, Jane 10, George H 8, Louisa 7, Mary Elizabeth 5 and Albert 2, all born Leeds

                      In view of their ages, the first three children are clearly Lazarus children, baptised to Harriet and Harris (see baptisms above)

                      1891:
                      Living at 18 Alma St., Leeds
                      George Mann, head, married, 48, crabber - cloth trade, born Leeds
                      Harriet Mann, wife, married, 50, born Leeds
                      children William 22, Jane Ann 20, Louie 17, Polly* 15, Albert 11, Alfred 9, John 6 and Nellie 4, all born Leeds

                      * nickname for Mary

                      1901:
                      Living at 259 Kirkstall Rd., Headingley, Leeds
                      George Mann, head, married, 57, dyer, born Leeds
                      Harriet Mann, wife, married, 59, born Leeds
                      son John 16, stepson George Ryde 25 and daughter Ellen Mann 14, all born Leeds
                      Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15, 12:32.

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                        Could it be simply because she was in debt?
                        Not sure if they had debtors' prisons at such a late date, but it might be worth researching.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          FWIW, I don't think there can be any doubt that Morris Lazarus was Jewish, or at least of Jewish descent - name is Jewish, occupation Jewish etc. The question mark in my mind would be whether Harris b 1840 was actually his child. If his birth cert/baptism could be found, it might be possible to make a guess, given the time between marriage and birth!

                          I agree with Christine about the Lazarus/Ryder name confusion - it was an attempt to escape from either being too easy to identify OR an attempt to distance himself from "Jewishness". It is also possible that a little pressure was brought to bear by the Jewish community in Leeds for him to stop bringing a Jewish name into disrepute! I don't think there is any mystery about it though.

                          OC

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                          • #33
                            This is the only baptism I've found so far to George and Harriet:

                            St Matthias, Burley, 3/12/1879
                            Albert Lazarus Mann, son of George (crabber) and Harriet Mann, 7 Union St.

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                            • #34
                              Births in Leeds (from FreeBMD):

                              Births Dec 1869
                              Lazarus Thomas William D Leeds 9b 390
                              Births Dec 1871
                              Lazarus Jane Ann Leeds 9b 403
                              Births Dec 1872
                              Lazarus George Harris Leeds 9b 419

                              Births Dec 1874
                              Lazarus Louis Leeds 9b 461
                              Births Jun 1879
                              Mann Albert Lazarus Leeds 9b 566
                              Births Sep 1881
                              Lazarus Alfred Mann Leeds 9b 441
                              Births Sep 1884
                              Lazarus John Mann Leeds 9b 471
                              Births Mar 1887
                              Lazarus Ellen Mann Leeds 9b 437

                              This accounts for most of the children who appear on the censuses with George Mann and Harriet.
                              Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15, 13:17.

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                The question mark in my mind would be whether Harris b 1840 was actually his child.
                                I think it's unlikely, personally, as he was known as both Lazarus and Rider later. I can't find a birth or baptism for him under any of the likely surnames.
                                I can't find a death for him, either.

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                                • #36
                                  Here's something interesting; on one of the censuses Harris Lazarus gives his birthplace as Radford, Notts, and I've now found a Barnett Lazarus and family, born Russia/Poland (depending on the census), living in Radford in 1891.

                                  I don't think the surname Lazarus is all that uncommon, so they may not necessarily be related to Harris, there may just have been a Jewish community in Radford at the time.

                                  There are various naturalisation certificates on TNA for people called Morris/Maurice Lazarus, including one from Leeds, but the dates are a bit late.

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                                  Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15, 14:14.

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                                  • #37
                                    Mary

                                    From what I have read about Jewish "surnames" Lazarus would not have been their surname in their country of origin but it would be a tribal name, (for want of a better expression!) and I would therefore think that most or all people named Lazarus in the UK would be related in some way, if only by marriage or original location.

                                    I think that the link you put up for Naturalisations is worth following up because even though some of those appear too late, I notice that some of them are DUPLICATE certs and it may be that a descendant needed to prove that his father or grandfather was a naturalised citizen.

                                    OC

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                                    • #38
                                      Good point, I hadn't thought of that.

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                                      • #39
                                        23andme will determine Jewish ancestry with your spit
                                        Researching Ceylon Tea Planters and Lambeth lawyers. Work in Translation.

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                                        • #40
                                          Wurding

                                          But it won't tell you the name of your Jewish ancestor. Betsy had a number of Jewish partners and it's likely that Harris's father was Jewish...but maybe not Morris.

                                          OC

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