Jewish connection?

[Mary from Italy]

I'm still trying to find Margaret and her children on the later censuses. There is a possible family in Hunslet, and some of the children were born in Rothwell, but the surname's Jackson, and I can't tie it in at all.

[colliemag]

Thank you Mary, very much appreciated.

[colliemag]

Fantastic, thanks OC. I had tried to work this out (also Harris) but failed!!

[colliemag]

As someone who has only gone through the 'straightforward' channels to find ancestry, I am somewhat relieved to find that I had given up when I did, through my confusion, and now realise that I had every right to be confused!! The moment I found the cross-over between Ryder and Lazarus I was stumped, but now at least I know how convoluted it was I feel a lot better!! Thank you everyone. I'll endeavour to get some of this into my head now!!

[naomiatt]

Hi, just been going through the thread, any luck in tracing Morris's (sp) father who was also called Morris (sp) as per the marriage info...

[Karamazov]

Hi, just been going through the thread, any luck in tracing Morris's (sp) father who was also called Morris (sp) as per the marriage info...

Hi Naomi,
No - very elusive! Nothing at all on Morris/Maurice the father. The only documented evidence we've found of Morris jnr are the 1839 marriage to Betsey and the 1841 census in Newcastle under Lyme (plus the mention of him as the father in the baptism record of Mary Jane Lazarus in 1841.)

No birth or baptism record found for Harris Lazarus either who may have been born in Notts according to the 1871 census.

Christine

[Mary from Italy]

But Leeds if the Lazarus Harris in 1851 is the same person.

[Karamazov]

But Leeds if the Lazarus Harris in 1851 is the same person.

But born out of county (of Yorkshire) according to 1841 census ...
Well, wherever it was, still no luck finding him...

[Mary from Italy]

But born out of county (of Yorkshire) according to 1841 census ...

Oh yes, I'd forgotten that.

Anyway, I've possibly found him in the 1861 census, not that it helps much.

Middlesex House of Correction, Cold Bath Fields, Clerkenwell
H.L., unmarried, 22, engineer, born Leeds, Yorkshire

The age and marital status are OK, the occupation's wrong (he said he was a cloth dresser when he got married) and we can't be sure of his birthplace, so it may or may not be him.

[naomiatt]

Might be worth a look at their Leeds database in case, lots of Harris's for example became Harris as a surname and it was actually their first name, same with Lazarus.. ..http://www.british-jewry.org.uk/..

also "I found Moris (sic) Lazarus in 1841
Living (presumably boarding) at Fletcher Street, Newcastle under Lyme
Moris Lazarus, 30, traveller, born in F (meaning born in foreign parts according to the column heading)
As were the three other travellers in the same household.
I think this may well be where your possible Jewish connection comes in, given their names:
Sampson Jacobs 65, Samuel Solomon 60, Wolf Marcus 35."

[colliemag]

I am going to need some serious time for sorting out all the thoughts/ideas/records from you all!! I'm pretty tied up this week but that will be my plan for next week. It looks somewhat daunting but has not only answered a lot of question, but also thrown up quite a few more!!! Fantastic! Thank you so much for all your help, friends.

[desperatelyseeking]

Hi colliemag,
i am wondering if you still follow the forum posts. I am keen to know if you got any further with the Ryder/Lazarus puzzle. I think there may be a common link with my family background and Harris Ryder
Desperatelyseeking

[desperatelyseeking]

I am still trying to unearth my great grandfather's birth certificate. He was known to our family as Harry Ryder. All the censuses from 1881 (none showing is existence before that) show him as living in Solihull area with his "wife" Maria (yet to find evidence of a marriage) with various children (six in all over the ensuing years). It is consistently stated on these records that he was born in Retford Nottinghamshire around 1842. There is only one Harry Ryder (Henry) born around that time according to the GRO and that one had a family from Lenton (mother Annie)whom I have ascertained from a descendant on Ancestry is her relative who died in the 1960's. My Harry (really Harris according to me late grandmother) only died in 1908 (record for that). He was 12 years older than Maria. They started having children in the late 1870's, the first two in the USA and the rest back in Solihull. Why would he keep stating that he was born in Retford if there is no record of that ? I know that this long post about Harris Ryder/Lazarus states that Betsey gave birth to her Harris out of county (Leeds) and am still thinking that there is a link here. There are more reasons for expecting this, but can anyone suggest a way he could have been born in the UK without some sort of record being made of the event? Such a puzzle!

[Olde Crone Holden]

Desperately seeking

There was no penalty for non registration of birth in 1842 so he may simply not have been registered.

I see that the one born in 1842 was also illegitimate. Are you absolutely sure he is not yours?

OC

[desperatelyseeking]

Yes. I got excited when I picked that up, but have since been in contact with a descendant of that line in Australia. She independently told me that the mother was an Ann Dennett. That Harry's mother was Ann Ryder. She had two illegitimate children first Harry and then Elizabeth. Then she married Albert Dennett and had more children. The address is consistently Lenton Notts.Her Harry died in an accident in the 1860's I think. (Record exists). We are still in contact and I am as convinced as I can be that it is just a coincidence. She has also helped me look for my Harry's birth certificate and marriage certificate to Maria to no avail. Maria had her first child by my Harry in South Carolina in 1875. Second one Charles in 1878, and then returned to Solihull. I am trying to find a descendant from George Harris Ryder (Harry and Harriet's child) or Jane Ann their firstborn. Many of the trees for George and/or Jane Mann have all Harriet's children down as "Mann" children so he either adopted the lot or they just went along with Harriet's new husband George. (They only married in 1896 I think!)
Thank you for responding. I wish I could find 'colliemag' as I feel that there is this possibility that my grandmother Jessica (end of the second line of Harry's children) would be a half sibling to George Harris and the other two at least. Of course, this is all just theoretical at the moment. Much fits the story though so it's worth my persuing.

[Chrissie Smiff]

Have you tried sending Colliemag a Private Message? If you click on her name you will see the option come up and if she has her settings to receive notifications she will see that you are trying to contact her.

[desperatelyseeking]

Thank you Chrissie! I did that and there is a note I guess, for me saying I have the private message option turned off. I will have to go to my options and check that out when i have space. Two preschool grandchildren with chicken pox here!
i am grateful for any help.

[desperatelyseeking]

Sadly, no response. We just keep going! It has been such a help receiving Karamazov's Lazarus tree just to create a sort of synopsis of all these posts. I am disheartened to hear from Olde Crone Holden that there was no law to record births in the 1840's and may well explain why both Betsey's Harris isn't recorded nor our Harris, both from the same birthplace.My Harris is placed as being born in several years from 1839 up to 1845, but most are around 184o or '41.
I am now going to follow up all Betsey's siblings and see if anything comes to light. I just need one descendant who has taken a DNA test to see if they are a 'match' with me. I have approx. 24 matches who have significant European Jewish DNA. Some are 100% Jewish to my 9%. Can't fathom a connection yet! I am feeling pretty sure it is in the maternal line. This just adds to the drive to get to the bottom of this story.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Do you know Maria's maiden name, please?

OC

[desperatelyseeking]

Maria Whittingham.
Born 20/07/1851 in Blackford, Tanworth -in-Arden Warks.
Died Dec 1921 Shirley Solihull.
Father Charles Whittingham 1835-1902 Mother Mary Morris 1813-1872.
Siblings: William,Martha and Anne and three half siblings (different mother who were older).