Well done for finding Morris in 1841, Christine.
Unconfigured Ad Widget
Collapse
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Jewish connection?
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by clematised View PostIt will go to the Mods it happened a few days ago to a lady I sent a message to and her reply was picked up by Caroline, I hope she sees this tomorrow and quickly posts more messages.
Edna
As you will have seen, they can reply to the messages received although their inbox space is limited until 10 posts are made....Caroline
Caroline's Family History Pages
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View PostThis is a bit odd.
Morris Lazarus m Betsy Rider in 1839 at St Peter, Leeds.
I checked to see what denomination St Peter was, and it was the Anglican parish church of Leeds. BUT - it was completely demolished in 1838 and rebuilt in 1841....so how did they marry there in 1839?
I noticed there were a couple of Harris Lazarus, so the Lazarus/Rider marriage might be a red herring, but I don't think so.
Colliemag - how do you know the Ryders were from Ireland? Is it possible that Margaret Kennedy was the Irish link?
OC
Anne
Comment
-
Thank you OC, I have all the census information, and his father Harris also appears to have changed his name to Ryder, but I can't find out where or when (or why!) I've looked on the censuses to see if there were any Ryders living nearby, and in one case George was lodging with a family and his name was Ryde. Very confusing. As the Ryders were from Ireland I'm wondering if George and his parents spent time in Ireland. I have certainly thought that about the Jewish name, but can't find where and when!! Thanks for your help, it's much appreciated.
Comment
-
That's the link I wasn't sure of. I found a Betsy Lazarus on her own with a baby, Harris, on the 1841 census (I think) a few years ago, but couldn't find her husband. I think she was in Hull, but will check that. Yes, the Kennedys were certainly from Ireland, and thinking about it, I think that's why it was assumed that the Ryders were, but I only have what little bit my husband remembers from very early childhood. George Harris Ryder married Margaret Kennedy (B Leeds about 1879), and her parents were Edward and Mary, both from Ireland (Tipperary). Maybe that was the red herring. Thank you for that, Anne. Yes, it would still be the same diocese that the church was in so would prob be counted as the same church, even if married in an adjacent building.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View PostColliemag
Do you not think that Mary and Christine have solved the puzzle? I do!
OC
As you told me you had a FindMyPast sub, I have just sent you an email with all the links I found including the census records, assorted prison records and newspaper articles. I wondered if you had inadvertently missed all the posts on page 2 of this thread?
As for the Lazarus/Ryder name "conundrum" - I doubt very much it was ever an official thing. I'd guess it was more likely a combination of trying to escape the long arm of the law and previous convictions being taken into account, and perhaps distancing himself from what seems to have been a chaotic home life. Possibly also an attempt to distance himself from a Jewish connection - from the 1841 census re his father Morris, the odds seem to be that Morris was Jewish (see post 18 above). I'm not a social historian, so can't say if this would have been a factor in 1850s/1860s Leeds.
i wonder if anyone can find more on Morris's father, also Morris - the shopkeeper mentioned in Mary's post number 13?
ChristineLast edited by Karamazov; 12-08-15, 10:40.Researching:
HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)
Comment
-
I can't find Harriet Lazarus in the criminal records on Ancestry or FMP, so I don't know why she was in prison in 1876.
It looks as though she took up with a George Mann some time after she came out of prison, and had loads of children by him. They eventually married in 1896; unfortunately the image of the marriage isn't on Ancestry, because she got married in what I assume was the Register Office.
1896 marriages
Surname / Forename(s) / Surname / Forename(s) / Church/Register Office
LAZARUS / Harriet E / MANN / George / Leeds Registered Building / Leeds
Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15, 11:18.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Mary from Italy View PostI can't find Harriet Lazarus in the criminal records on Ancestry or FMP, so I don't know why she was in prison in 1876.
It looks as though she took up with a George Mann some time after she came out of prison, and had loads of children by him. They eventually married in 1896; unfortunately the image of the marriage isn't on Ancestry, because she got married in what I assume was the Register Office.
Surname / Forename(s) / Surname / Forename(s) / Church/Register Office
LAZARUS / Harriet E / MANN / George / Leeds Registered Building / Leeds
http://www.yorkshirebmd.info/cgi/marrind.cgi
Comment
-
Censuses:
1881:
Living at 1 Amber St., Leeds
George Mann, head, married, 37, crabber at dye house, born Leeds
Harriet Mann, wife, married, 34, born Leeds
children Thomas 11, Jane 10, George H 8, Louisa 7, Mary Elizabeth 5 and Albert 2, all born Leeds
In view of their ages, the first three children are clearly Lazarus children, baptised to Harriet and Harris (see baptisms above)
1891:
Living at 18 Alma St., Leeds
George Mann, head, married, 48, crabber - cloth trade, born Leeds
Harriet Mann, wife, married, 50, born Leeds
children William 22, Jane Ann 20, Louie 17, Polly* 15, Albert 11, Alfred 9, John 6 and Nellie 4, all born Leeds
* nickname for Mary
1901:
Living at 259 Kirkstall Rd., Headingley, Leeds
George Mann, head, married, 57, dyer, born Leeds
Harriet Mann, wife, married, 59, born Leeds
son John 16, stepson George Ryde 25 and daughter Ellen Mann 14, all born LeedsLast edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15, 11:32.
Comment
-
FWIW, I don't think there can be any doubt that Morris Lazarus was Jewish, or at least of Jewish descent - name is Jewish, occupation Jewish etc. The question mark in my mind would be whether Harris b 1840 was actually his child. If his birth cert/baptism could be found, it might be possible to make a guess, given the time between marriage and birth!
I agree with Christine about the Lazarus/Ryder name confusion - it was an attempt to escape from either being too easy to identify OR an attempt to distance himself from "Jewishness". It is also possible that a little pressure was brought to bear by the Jewish community in Leeds for him to stop bringing a Jewish name into disrepute! I don't think there is any mystery about it though.
OC
Comment
-
Births in Leeds (from FreeBMD):
Births Dec 1869
Lazarus Thomas William D Leeds 9b 390
Births Dec 1871
Lazarus Jane Ann Leeds 9b 403
Births Dec 1872
Lazarus George Harris Leeds 9b 419
Births Dec 1874
Lazarus Louis Leeds 9b 461
Births Jun 1879
Mann Albert Lazarus Leeds 9b 566
Births Sep 1881
Lazarus Alfred Mann Leeds 9b 441
Births Sep 1884
Lazarus John Mann Leeds 9b 471
Births Mar 1887
Lazarus Ellen Mann Leeds 9b 437
This accounts for most of the children who appear on the censuses with George Mann and Harriet.Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15, 12:17.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View PostThe question mark in my mind would be whether Harris b 1840 was actually his child.
I can't find a death for him, either.
Comment
-
Here's something interesting; on one of the censuses Harris Lazarus gives his birthplace as Radford, Notts, and I've now found a Barnett Lazarus and family, born Russia/Poland (depending on the census), living in Radford in 1891.
I don't think the surname Lazarus is all that uncommon, so they may not necessarily be related to Harris, there may just have been a Jewish community in Radford at the time.
There are various naturalisation certificates on TNA for people called Morris/Maurice Lazarus, including one from Leeds, but the dates are a bit late.
Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15, 13:14.
Comment
-
Mary
From what I have read about Jewish "surnames" Lazarus would not have been their surname in their country of origin but it would be a tribal name, (for want of a better expression!) and I would therefore think that most or all people named Lazarus in the UK would be related in some way, if only by marriage or original location.
I think that the link you put up for Naturalisations is worth following up because even though some of those appear too late, I notice that some of them are DUPLICATE certs and it may be that a descendant needed to prove that his father or grandfather was a naturalised citizen.
OC
Comment
Comment