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Thread: Jewish connection?

  1. #21
    Member Mary from Italy's Avatar
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    Well done for finding Morris in 1841, Christine.

  2. #22
    Administrator Caroline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clematised View Post
    It will go to the Mods it happened a few days ago to a lady I sent a message to and her reply was picked up by Caroline, I hope she sees this tomorrow and quickly posts more messages.

    Edna
    Not quite - this person had clicked on the email link to reply to the message instead of logging in and replying on the forum through Notifications. When this is done it goes to the Admin email Inbox where gets picked up by the Administrators.

    As you will have seen, they can reply to the messages received although their inbox space is limited until 10 posts are made....
    Caroline
    Caroline's Family History Pages (Latest version ~ site often being updated, so subject to frequent changes.)
    Do not do to others what angers you if done to you by others. Socrates

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
    This is a bit odd.

    Morris Lazarus m Betsy Rider in 1839 at St Peter, Leeds.

    I checked to see what denomination St Peter was, and it was the Anglican parish church of Leeds. BUT - it was completely demolished in 1838 and rebuilt in 1841....so how did they marry there in 1839?

    I noticed there were a couple of Harris Lazarus, so the Lazarus/Rider marriage might be a red herring, but I don't think so.

    Colliemag - how do you know the Ryders were from Ireland? Is it possible that Margaret Kennedy was the Irish link?

    OC
    Not really odd OC. I have a similar case in Doncaster where St George's was being rebuilt. During the rebuilding the church activities would have been held in some other temporary place such as a church hall but it would still have been called the same with the same clergy.
    Anne

  4. #24
    Thank you OC, I have all the census information, and his father Harris also appears to have changed his name to Ryder, but I can't find out where or when (or why!) I've looked on the censuses to see if there were any Ryders living nearby, and in one case George was lodging with a family and his name was Ryde. Very confusing. As the Ryders were from Ireland I'm wondering if George and his parents spent time in Ireland. I have certainly thought that about the Jewish name, but can't find where and when!! Thanks for your help, it's much appreciated.

  5. #25
    That's the link I wasn't sure of. I found a Betsy Lazarus on her own with a baby, Harris, on the 1841 census (I think) a few years ago, but couldn't find her husband. I think she was in Hull, but will check that. Yes, the Kennedys were certainly from Ireland, and thinking about it, I think that's why it was assumed that the Ryders were, but I only have what little bit my husband remembers from very early childhood. George Harris Ryder married Margaret Kennedy (B Leeds about 1879), and her parents were Edward and Mary, both from Ireland (Tipperary). Maybe that was the red herring. Thank you for that, Anne. Yes, it would still be the same diocese that the church was in so would prob be counted as the same church, even if married in an adjacent building.

  6. #26
    Colliemag

    Do you not think that Mary and Christine have solved the puzzle? I do!

    OC

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
    Colliemag

    Do you not think that Mary and Christine have solved the puzzle? I do!

    OC
    Hi Colliemag,
    As you told me you had a FindMyPast sub, I have just sent you an email with all the links I found including the census records, assorted prison records and newspaper articles. I wondered if you had inadvertently missed all the posts on page 2 of this thread?

    As for the Lazarus/Ryder name "conundrum" - I doubt very much it was ever an official thing. I'd guess it was more likely a combination of trying to escape the long arm of the law and previous convictions being taken into account, and perhaps distancing himself from what seems to have been a chaotic home life. Possibly also an attempt to distance himself from a Jewish connection - from the 1841 census re his father Morris, the odds seem to be that Morris was Jewish (see post 18 above). I'm not a social historian, so can't say if this would have been a factor in 1850s/1860s Leeds.

    i wonder if anyone can find more on Morris's father, also Morris - the shopkeeper mentioned in Mary's post number 13?

    Christine
    Last edited by Karamazov; 12-08-15 at 11:40.
    Researching:
    HOEY
    (assorted Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Co Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballyculter, Strangford, Co Down)

  8. #28
    Member Mary from Italy's Avatar
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    I can't find Harriet Lazarus in the criminal records on Ancestry or FMP, so I don't know why she was in prison in 1876.

    It looks as though she took up with a George Mann some time after she came out of prison, and had loads of children by him. They eventually married in 1896; unfortunately the image of the marriage isn't on Ancestry, because she got married in what I assume was the Register Office.

    1896 marriages
    Surname / Forename(s) / Surname / Forename(s) / Church/Register Office
    LAZARUS / Harriet E / MANN / George / Leeds Registered Building / Leeds

    http://www.yorkshirebmd.info/cgi/marrind.cgi
    Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15 at 12:18.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mary from Italy View Post
    I can't find Harriet Lazarus in the criminal records on Ancestry or FMP, so I don't know why she was in prison in 1876.

    It looks as though she took up with a George Mann some time after she came out of prison, and had loads of children by him. They eventually married in 1896; unfortunately the image of the marriage isn't on Ancestry, because she got married in what I assume was the Register Office.

    Surname / Forename(s) / Surname / Forename(s) / Church/Register Office
    LAZARUS / Harriet E / MANN / George / Leeds Registered Building / Leeds

    http://www.yorkshirebmd.info/cgi/marrind.cgi
    Could it be simply because she was in debt? There was something similar on the last series of WDYTYA where a mother and her children were in dire straights due to the debts of an absconding husband although if memory serves me correctly, they ended up in the workhouse rather than actual prison. There were debtor's prisons where families were together as per Dickens' 'Little Dorritt'.

  10. #30
    Member Mary from Italy's Avatar
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    Censuses:

    1881:
    Living at 1 Amber St., Leeds
    George Mann, head, married, 37, crabber at dye house, born Leeds
    Harriet Mann, wife, married, 34, born Leeds
    children Thomas 11, Jane 10, George H 8, Louisa 7, Mary Elizabeth 5 and Albert 2, all born Leeds

    In view of their ages, the first three children are clearly Lazarus children, baptised to Harriet and Harris (see baptisms above)

    1891:
    Living at 18 Alma St., Leeds
    George Mann, head, married, 48, crabber - cloth trade, born Leeds
    Harriet Mann, wife, married, 50, born Leeds
    children William 22, Jane Ann 20, Louie 17, Polly* 15, Albert 11, Alfred 9, John 6 and Nellie 4, all born Leeds

    * nickname for Mary

    1901:
    Living at 259 Kirkstall Rd., Headingley, Leeds
    George Mann, head, married, 57, dyer, born Leeds
    Harriet Mann, wife, married, 59, born Leeds
    son John 16, stepson George Ryde 25 and daughter Ellen Mann 14, all born Leeds
    Last edited by Mary from Italy; 12-08-15 at 12:32.

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