Jewish connection?

[Mary from Italy]

Betsy had a number of Jewish partners and it's likely that Harris's father was Jewish...but maybe not Morris.

Harris can certainly be a Jewish forename, but it could also be a maiden name from way back used as a Christian name, which was common in Yorkshire.

All the baptisms we've found so far have been C of E, although the children obviously wouldn't count as being Jewish as their mother presumably wasn't (she was christened in the C of E).

[colliemag]

I'm amazed at how much information is there that I would never have found on my own. I am so grateful to everyone for your input, and once I've finished digesting it and putting it all in order I can add it all to my files. My husband and his brother are shocked, to say the least!!! I still need to find out where in Tipperary the Kennedys came from, but that's for another day!

[colliemag]

The Kennedys were RC and from that point the Ryders were RC. Although my husband's mother (a Ryder) married an Anglican, the children were RC and the older ones remained so. Their mother, Lilian Ryder, died when my husband was only about 4, their father remarried to an Anglican and so he and his brother, although baptised RC were brought up Anglican.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Mary

I agree that Harris could be a Yorkshire forename but given the other Jewish "clues" I would think in this case it is a Jewish forename.

I've told this before on another thread. My late MIL was Jewish but married in the C of E, had her only child baptised C of E and regularly attended church, sending my ex OH to Sunday School. When she died I was stunned to hear that she had regularly attended synagogue and she had a Jewish burial. In other words, Jewish people don't have a problem with having a foot in both camps as far as religion goes! I didn't think to ask and it is too late now, but I think she may also have had a Jewish wedding ceremony as well as the C of E ceremony, thus satisfying both sides of the family.

I would THINK that Betsy Rider also had Jewish heritage but of course it could have been a long way back.

I also meant to say - MANN is a surname which is often an anglicised Jewish surname, so again, the possible Jewish connection.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

Collie, if you need any more help, just shout

If you want to see the images of any events that aren't on FindmyPast (e.g. the West Yorkshire baptisms and marriages, which I found on Ancestry) you should be able to access Ancestry for free at your local library. Alternatively you can take out a 14-day trial subscription to Ancestry; you have to give your credit card details, but if you cancel within 14 days you don't get charged.

[Mary from Italy]

I'm trying to find the marriage of Betsy's parents, but drawing a blank so far; the names are fairly common, and I can't see anything in or near the Bellerby area. None of the possibilities I've found so far show her mother's maiden name as Harris, anyway

[Mary from Italy]

Betsy had quite a few siblings, all baptised in Spennithorpe: Mary 1813, John 1815, Thomas 1817, Margaret 1819 and Mary Ann 1821. There are also two children born there to Ann Ryder, no father's name given: Joseph 1828 and Joseph 1831. All except Betsy have the surname spelled Ryder.

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&englishSubcountryName=Yorkshire&query=%2Bsurname%3Arider~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Aspen*%20%2Bfather_givenname%3Ajohn~%20%2Bmother_givenname%3Aann*%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland%20%2Brecord_subcountry%3A%22England%2CYorkshire%22

[maudarby]

Sorry if I'm being a bit thick but how come Betsy Lazarus had an unmarried daughter Margaret with the surname Beadnell?
Moggie

[Mary from Italy]

Ooh! Just been looking for John and Ann Rider in the censuses, and found something interesting.

1851
Living at Paterson's Court, Georges Street, Leeds
John Ryder, head, married, 69, labourer, born Stackforth?, Yorkshire
Ann Ryder, wife, married, 59, born Belerby, Yorks
Lazarus Harris, nephew, 12, errand boy, born Leeds
Thomas Ryder, lodger, 50? (or 30?), unmarried, born London
and 3 lodgers

Lazarus Harris was presumably their grandson Harris Lazarus.
Ann can't have been 50 if Betsy was born around 1811, though.

[Mary from Italy]

Sorry if I'm being a bit thick but how come Betsy Lazarus had an unmarried daughter Margaret with the surname Beadnell?
Moggie

If you read upthread you'll see that she and another girl were born to Betsy's relationship (or maybe marriage) with Robert Beadnell before she married Morris Lazarus.

[Mary from Italy]

Sorry, I'm too late to edit post 47, but "on 1815" should read "John 1815".


(I've just been back to edit it for you, so that the info is altogether on one place. - Christine)

[Olde Crone Holden]

Moggie

We think Betsy was either previously married to Mr Beadnell or had a child (Margaret( with him.

I've just been looking at the surname Lazarus - Jewish as expected but in Hebrew it is ELEAZAR and I'm sure I saw that version somewhere. It is non-specific (geographically) and is used all over the world.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

Also too late to edit post 49; I've misread Ann Ryder's age, which should be 59.


(I've just been back to edit this one, too, for you, so that the info is altogether on one place. - Christine)

[maudarby]

Thanks Mary & OC.
I must have missed a couple of posts up thread.
Moggie

[Karamazov]

Ooh! Just been looking for John and Ann Rider in the censuses, and found something interesting.

1851
Living at Paterson's Court, Georges Street, Leeds
John Ryder, head, married, 69, labourer, born Stackforth?, Yorkshire
Ann Ryder, wife, married, 50, born Belerby, Yorks
Lazarus Harris, nephew, 12, errand boy, born Leeds
Thomas Ryder, lodger, 50? (or 30?), unmarried, born London
and 3 lodgers

Lazarus Harris was presumably their grandson Harris Lazarus.
Ann can't have been 50 if Betsy was born around 1811, though.

Wow Mary - good find!

I too have been looking for the assorted kids who weren't with Betsey in 1851 and thinking they might have been farmed out to grandparents. Tried all sorts of variations but never thought that first name and surname might have been transposed! I think you've cracked it with this one. I can't swear to it now but I think Harris may have been described as a messenger boy in one of the early newspaper reports detailing his life of crime circa 1854 - pickpocketing offences in Leeds.
I sent loads of FMP newspaper links to Collie earlier today and she's probably read them more closely than I have. However, if the messenger boy is just a figment of my imagination - so much swirling around my head re this lot - I'm till sure you've found him! By the way, Ann is clearly recorded as 59 on both the FMP transcription and the image, so that gets rid of your minor reservation.

No success so far in finding Margaret Beadnell in 1841 or 1851.

However, the other Beadnell daughter you found, Rebecca, died 23 August 1835 aged 17 months, parents Robert and Elizabeth Beadnell. Buried Leeds St. Peter. (Transcription on FMP says aged 17 but it's definitely 17 months on the image. (She was baptised 12 April 1835.)

Christine

EDIT - Sorry - I've just seen that you'd already amended Ann Ryder's age from 50 to 59 upthread.

[Mary from Italy]

Not sure if this is relevant or not.

Burials
St Peter's, Leeds, 8/8/1845
John Ryder, married man, York Street, aged 59

I had originally assumed that the two Joseph Ryders born in Spennithorne in 1828 and 1831 were illegitimate children of Ann Ryder, and that her husband John had died after the baptism of Mary Ann in 1821, or they'd separated.

However, as a John and Ann Ryder were together in 1851 with Harris Lazarus, I thought those must be Betsy's parents, and that the word "nephew" describing Harris was a mistake.

I might have discounted the 1845 burial, except for the fact that when Betsy and Morris Lazarus were married in 1839, they gave their address as York Street...

So I'm now hopelessly confused

[Karamazov]

No success so far in finding Margaret Beadnell in 1841 or 1851.

I think I've just found Margaret Beadnell in 1851 - unmarried house servant aged 19 born in Leeds, working in the household of Carson Ramskill, a chemist, in Lofthouse, Hunslet, Yorkshire.

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1851%2f4301787%2f00251&parentid=gbc%2f1851%2f0014667121

Christine

[Mary from Italy]

That looks promising.

I've found a John and Ann Ryder in 1841 in Union Street, Leeds, with an Anthony 9 and Margaret 7.

There's a baptism for Anthony with those parents, but not for Margaret, and she's about the right age to be Margaret Beadnell, but I'm not at all certain it's the right family.

[Karamazov]

Not sure if this is relevant or not.

Burials
St Peter's, Leeds, 8/8/1845
John Ryder, married man, York Street, aged 59

I had originally assumed that the two Joseph Ryders born in Spennithorne in 1828 and 1831 were illegitimate children of Ann Ryder, and that her husband John had died after the baptism of Mary Ann in 1821, or they'd separated.

However, as a John and Ann Ryder were together in 1851 with Harris Lazarus, I thought those must be Betsy's parents, and that the word "nephew" describing Harris was a mistake.

I might have discounted the 1845 burial, except for the fact that when Betsy and Morris Lazarus were married in 1839, they gave their address as York Street...

So I'm now hopelessly confused

Do you think this is John and Ann Rider (sic) in 1841 at Heads Yard, Union Street, Leeds. He is a labourer which tallies with the 1851 you found. Plus ages are in the right ball park given the 5 year rounding in the 1841 census. Two further children Anthony 9 and Margaret 7.

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1841%2f1346%2f0616&parentid=gbc%2f1841%2f0010358873

Christine

[Karamazov]

Do you think this is John and Ann Rider (sic) in 1841 at Heads Yard, Union Street, Leeds. He is a labourer which tallies with the 1851 you found. Plus ages are in the right ball park given the 5 year rounding in the 1841 census. Two further children Anthony 9 and Margaret 7.

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1841%2f1346%2f0616&parentid=gbc%2f1841%2f0010358873

Christine

I tried to edit this post when I realised you had found the same record in your post 58 but even though I was within the 10 minutes edit time, the postscript didn't appear! Sorry for the repetition/cross posting.
Interesting thought that Margaret Rider could possibly be Margaret Beadnell ... I wouldn't rule that out by any means as this is such a tangled family...