Need Help with Jewish Research

[Guest]

19 Burslem street Aldgate is mentioned here

http://www.192.com/address/details/london/e1+2ll/19/

[Mole]

Hi all,

Thanks yet again for all your thoughts and suggestions. I will set myself to work on the list of "Moles jobs to do" tomorrow eve. Please bear with me if I seem to take a while to respond sometimes, but as Wallaby mentioned I work full time and don't have as much time as I'd like to spend on my research. What I can tell you is that I printed off a page from Ancestry back in 2011, "Post Office London". I've no idea now what section it was in but the page I have is page 234 BUR and it lists all the streets beginning with BUR and it says "19 Burslem Street, Bloomfield Morris tobaccionist".

The death certificate shows that a post mortem was carried out as it says next to the cause of death it says p.m. and then in the column for the informant it states "certificate received from R.L Guthrie, coroner for the Eastern District of London, Inquest held 24th April 1922."

I will put the other jobs on my "to do" list for tomorrow.

Thanks so much everybody for getting so involved.

Mole

[Olde Crone Holden]

As an inquest was held then there may be a report in the paper. Coroner's records are difficult to find but most inquests were reported in the paper.

OC

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I keep coming back to the Robert Cooper/Elizabeth Bensusan marriage -

If this was indeed Esther's sister, why did she marry in a C of E church? What is the name recorded for the bride's father - is it Alexander?? There MAY have been C of E bps for children of this marriage, although there was more than one Robert & Eliz Cooper around at the time.

ETA
There are two Elizabeth Bensusans in 1891 census, both 18, both cigarmakers, both in Whitechapel. Both fathers were general dealers. One was Isaac, the other Zalick. Zalick was Esther's father - would this have been the Alexander on the above marriage cert?

Jay

[naomiatt]

I keep coming back to the Robert Cooper/Elizabeth Bensusan marriage -

If this was indeed Esther's sister, why did she marry in a C of E church? What is the name recorded for the bride's father - is it Alexander?? There MAY have been C of E bps for children of this marriage, although there was more than one Robert & Eliz Cooper around at the time.

ETA
There are two Elizabeth Bensusans in 1891 census, both 18, both cigarmakers, both in Whitechapel. Both fathers were general dealers. One was Isaac, the other Zalick. Zalick was Esther's father - would this have been the Alexander on the above marriage cert?

Jay

http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/w...ch~model1~GNDB you can use this to show the hebrew name to commonly used anglicised, and vice versa - this one is for Zelig
this for Alexander http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/w...ch~model1~GNDB

[naomiatt]

There are a number of B's on JGen, some in the Boer War, 1899-1902.... There was an Isaac, passed away 1886.. re post above, quite different names... although it can happen that the hebrew name has no obvious connection to the known name, more often than not it does..

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I can't get the link to work, Naomi - it says there is a technical difficulty.

Jay

[naomiatt]

I can't get the link to work, Naomi - it says there is a technical difficulty.

Jay

http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/G...mes/search.htm this might do it Jay. Just been going through all the posts Mole, you said that someone said that Louis's father was David, another document says Solomon, etc.. for the stones, Joseph is the son of Yehudah...I can't make out Sidney, looks like it beings with a 'sh' and the father's name ends in a 'd' of 'f'...it doesn't look like Solomon for the first name but I can't be sure without seeing a better photo, could even be Shimon maybe - the father's name, hard call..

[Mole]

Naomiatt, that's really interesting that on Joseph's stone it says "son of Yehuda". I am 100% sure that all the birth and death certificates that I have, and all the graves I have located are the right children of the right Louis and Esther as I am doing this research in conjunction with a friend who is Louis' grandson. He is the son of Louis and Esther's youngest son, Solomon. The army discharge document was found in the possession of his uncle David, so we also know that that relates to the correct family. I also tracked down the granddaughter of Elijah, she emigrated to New Zealand with her parents at the age of about 3 years, and it was her mother who would have been my friend's cousin, but because of a family "falling out" he never knew her or met her. I will get to work on my "jobs to do list" tout pronto.

Thanks everybody for the continued effort you are all putting in,

Mole

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Naomi -Thanks for the new link.

Jay

[Guest]

this link is interesting it lists headstones in Plashet and so forth

http://www.cemeteryscribes.com/showmap.php?cemeteryID=6&tree=&offset=50&tree=&tngpage=2

[naomiatt]

Joseph – Yosef son of Yehudah
Elijah – Eliyahu son of Leib/Lev
Sydney – Shlomo son of Leib/Lev
Esther – daughter of Zelig wife of Yehudah son of David

Yehudah Leib often go together - Aryeh/Yehudah/Leib for Lion and Yehudah is often known as Louis – but if the right family why are some Yehudah and some Leib on the stones.
Often it depended on who arranged the burial. Marriage authorisations for the children might clarify as they provide the full hebrew names. Mole, I think you said that Louis's father was Solomon? Where did you get that information from?

[naomiatt]

Could be something or nothing, Solomon Fisher also known as Charles Fisher was at 19 Burslem St, Commercial Rd, tobacco dealer, as per the LG, 27/11/28

[Wallaby]

Joseph – Yosef son of Yehudah
Elijah – Eliyahu son of Leib/Lev
Sydney – Shlomo son of Leib/Lev
Esther – daughter of Zelig wife of Yehudah son of David

Yehudah Leib often go together - Aryeh/Yehudah/Leib for Lion and Yehudah is often known as Louis – but if the right family why are some Yehudah and some Leib on the stones.
Often it depended on who arranged the burial. Marriage authorisations for the children might clarify as they provide the full hebrew names. Mole, I think you said that Louis's father was Solomon? Where did you get that information from?

Thanks Naomi.

This is Naomiatt translation of the Hebrew on the stones from clearer photos that Mole has sent.

Mole has been really thorough with her research & I think she deserves a pat on the back, especially given that she tells me that her weak point is websites! But this thread is turning into a head scratcher, getting more confusing with the more info we see! So I’ve asked Mole to email me all the documents she has on each individual & also what unproven info she has & the source of that unproven info. I’ve asked her to start with the oldest person & work forward with a separate email for each person. There's a few families with the same name in the same area & we need to be 100% sure that they're not entangled.

One thing I've noticed, which may or may not be significant, is that some of the gravestones are the same design, which could indicate the person buried is from the same family & some are completely different.

Wal'

[Wallaby]

Joseph – Yosef son of Yehudah
Elijah – Eliyahu son of Leib/Lev
Sydney – Shlomo son of Leib/Lev
Esther – daughter of Zelig wife of Yehudah son of David

Yehudah Leib often go together - Aryeh/Yehudah/Leib for Lion and Yehudah is often known as Louis – but if the right family why are some Yehudah and some Leib on the stones.
Often it depended on who arranged the burial. Marriage authorisations for the children might clarify as they provide the full hebrew names. Mole, I think you said that Louis's father was Solomon? Where did you get that information from?

My grandfather Louis' Hebrew name was Yehudah Aryé Lieb on the MA cert. Is Aryé Lieb the Yiddish form of Yehudah, forget now!

Wal'

[maudarby]

Hi Mole
I've been looking at the attestation papers for Charles Davies (1281) & what the transcription doesn't include is that Charles previously served in the 5th Battalion Royal Fusiliers. This is in answer to the question 13) Do you now belong to or have ever served in the Militia or Militia reserve. Would there be attestation papers for this service? I looked on TNA but nothing jumped out at me. I hate that site; I can never find what I am looking for. There was also a hand written note (same handwriting as on the form) which I think says "Heavy punishment" written across a question asking if the person has been discharged from the services or served a prison sentence etc etc.

Do you have any documents that Louis has signed personally? If so might be worth comparing with Charles Davis' signature on the form & might confirm if they were the same person.
Moggie

[naomiatt]

My grandfather Louis' Hebrew name was Yehudah Aryé Lieb on the MA cert. Is Aryé Lieb the Yiddish form of Yehudah, forget now!

Wal'

http://cgj.hexadyne.net/texte/Noms_table.pdf This site shows the calques and kinnuims for lots of names, Yehudah can also be Zelig for example. Yehudah Leib, Arieh Leib etc etc..all can go together.. http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/w...ch~model1~GNDB

[Mole]

I've had a really hard week at work and I've just come and logged onto FTF, and you've all lifted my spirits again ! Last night I was feeling a bit deflated but you've all found some new and really interesting things out in the space of a day, so thanks again evryone. I was really interested to see what the Hebrew translations were on the headstones, so thanks very much to Naomiatt for that !

Re Charles Davis' attestation papers, I had seen the bit about being in the Militia and I did make some enquiries about whether there was any records of those that could be searched but came up a blank on that. I wrote to the KoB museum somewhere in Scotland to see if they had any further info on Charles Davis but there was nothing more they could tell me.

Anyway, as Wal' said, I'm going to send her all the documents I have for her to caset a fresh pair of eyes on them.

Thanks everyone for cheering me up this eve !

Mole

[naomiatt]

I've had a really hard week at work and I've just come and logged onto FTF, and you've all lifted my spirits again ! Last night I was feeling a bit deflated but you've all found some new and really interesting things out in the space of a day, so thanks again evryone. I was really interested to see what the Hebrew translations were on the headstones, so thanks very much to Naomiatt for that !

Re Charles Davis' attestation papers, I had seen the bit about being in the Militia and I did make some enquiries about whether there was any records of those that could be searched but came up a blank on that. I wrote to the KoB museum somewhere in Scotland to see if they had any further info on Charles Davis but there was nothing more they could tell me.

Anyway, as Wal' said, I'm going to send her all the documents I have for her to caset a fresh pair of eyes on them.

Thanks everyone for cheering me up this eve !

Mole

Not a problem Mole. I think with Charles it's worth contacting the Imperial War Musuem with the factual info you have, I can't find anything in the JC for him, most Jewish soldiers are mentioned from 1895 onward......

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections-research

[naomiatt]

Hi Mole
I've been looking at the attestation papers for Charles Davies (1281) & what the transcription doesn't include is that Charles previously served in the 5th Battalion Royal Fusiliers. This is in answer to the question 13) Do you now belong to or have ever served in the Militia or Militia reserve. Would there be attestation papers for this service? I looked on TNA but nothing jumped out at me. I hate that site; I can never find what I am looking for. There was also a hand written note (same handwriting as on the form) which I think says "Heavy punishment" written across a question asking if the person has been discharged from the services or served a prison sentence etc etc.

Do you have any documents that Louis has signed personally? If so might be worth comparing with Charles Davis' signature on the form & might confirm if they were the same person.
Moggie

'
Hi Moggie, is there a chance there could be info in the Old Bailey site?.....