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  • #41
    Julie I have no idea - it is strange, but maybe she had a habit of lying about her age? I have come across varying age ranges before, but there's a big difference between 16 and 20 isn't there?

    I can't find Martin and Mary on the 1871 Census - so far - but Catherine was born in Lancaster and not Ireland.

    I've found the Marriage of Catherine and Richard and am looking for him in 1901.

    I can see this being unresolved until I fork out for some certificates. The problem is at £10 a time I can't afford to buy any just yet - particularly after the subscription faux pas lol

    I will search for another Catherine Baker b1865 and see what comes up - thanks for your help x
    Kaye x

    Everyday in every way my life is getting better!

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
      Here's a bit more:

      Richard Hayton b1891, mmn Baker
      Richard Hayton Downham m 1912 to Elizabeth Wilson (Lancaster ROorRA)

      IF Catherine Baker Hayton Downham is the one who died in 1895 (#post 21 above) then Richard Downham the grieving widower may have married again in 1898 to Mary Hudson. (Lancaster ROorRA).

      If she isn't the one who died in 1895, then why didn't she have any more children? (According to Lancsbmd, that is, of course).

      OC

      All
      this is what OC posted earlier Kaye, in theory Richard should be with wife Mary, and possibly his stepson Richard is with him. I know you live near to me, so not an option looking through parish records to find the marriage, [saves buying the cert!]
      Julie
      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

      .......I find dead people

      Comment


      • #43
        KAYE!!!!!! LOOK!! guess who I have found


        1891: http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bi...iv=1&ml_rpos=2

        Source Citation
        Class: RG12; Piece: 4333; Folio: 157; Page: 1; GSU roll: 6099443

        Richard Downham 22
        Kate Downham 23
        Julie
        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

        .......I find dead people

        Comment


        • #44
          1901:http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...iv=1&ml_rpos=5

          Richard with Mary and Richard [son]
          Source Citation
          Class: RG13; Piece: 3988; Folio: 127; Page: 20

          1911:http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...iv=1&ml_rpos=1

          Source Citation
          Class: RG14; Piece: 25528

          richard/mary and son richard again
          Julie
          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

          .......I find dead people

          Comment


          • #45
            You are a genius Julie lol

            Unfortunately I can't look at the links - I'm not a paying member of Ancestry at the moment. I'm actually really annoyed with myself because I would have had a month with them given the choice - giving myself a good kicking! lol

            But even so I can look up the records on Find my Past. I have finally heard back from David - my relative with the information - and he was aware of Richard Downham as he was involved in a Fracas with Catherine which saw them both arrested by the sound of it! So it's a safe bet that Richard married Catherine and then married again once she died. I'm going to go through what you found now - I hadn't thought of looking for a Kate - she's never called herself that before!

            Apparently she lived and had the fracas in a notoriously bad part of Lancaster called China Lane - she sounds pretty rough lol

            I really couldn't have found this without either of you helping me - thank you for helping me over the brick wall x
            Kaye x

            Everyday in every way my life is getting better!

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by Kaye LaLa View Post
              You are a genius Julie lol

              Unfortunately I can't look at the links - I'm not a paying member of Ancestry at the moment. I'm actually really annoyed with myself because I would have had a month with them given the choice - giving myself a good kicking! lol

              But even so I can look up the records on Find my Past. I have finally heard back from David - my relative with the information - and he was aware of Richard Downham as he was involved in a Fracas with Catherine which saw them both arrested by the sound of it! So it's a safe bet that Richard married Catherine and then married again once she died. I'm going to go through what you found now - I hadn't thought of looking for a Kate - she's never called herself that before!

              Apparently she lived and had the fracas in a notoriously bad part of Lancaster called China Lane - she sounds pretty rough lol

              I really couldn't have found this without either of you helping me - thank you for helping me over the brick wall x
              hopefully as I have given you the source citations you can use those to look on FMP for the right census images, if you can't find them PM me your email and i'll send them over to you :smilee:
              Julie
              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

              .......I find dead people

              Comment


              • #47
                seems she was calling herself Mrs Downham in 1891 even though she wasn't until 1894!
                Julie
                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                .......I find dead people

                Comment


                • #48
                  I can confirm that Kate Hayton in 1890 is Catherine - Richard Downham and his Sister are on the same page, and all three were tried for assault. Catherine/Kate and Richard's Sister Sarah were let off, but Richard didn't. They were all drunk and attacked some Woman with a Fork!!!!

                  I will let you know what else crawls out of the woodwork - I dread to think lol
                  Kaye x

                  Everyday in every way my life is getting better!

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Just realised you have Kate Downham, not Hayton - but it's clearly the same woman.

                    I think it's pretty clear that she was the type of Woman who didn't care about lying about trivial things such as surname and probably age?

                    In 1890 when the trio were tried for assault, her dob is given as 1867 this time. Maybe she just wanted people (Men?) to think she was younger than she actually was? Also it's possible that she wasn't sober or at least hungover on many of the occasions when she was asked her dob?
                    Last edited by Kaye LaLa; 13-03-15, 18:16.
                    Kaye x

                    Everyday in every way my life is getting better!

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      oooh 1890 Richard was a naughty boy! and so was Kate [not a boy though]! lol.. she got acquitted he got 2 months


                      Name: Richard Downham
                      Date of Trial: 13 Oct 1890
                      Trial Year: 1890
                      Location of Trial: Lancashire, England
                      Sentence: Imprisonment



                      Kate Hayton 13 October 1890 1890 Lancashire, England Acquittal
                      Julie
                      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                      .......I find dead people

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Kaye LaLa View Post
                        Just realised you have Kate Downham, not Hayton - but it's clearly the same woman.

                        I think it's pretty clear that she was the type of Woman who didn't care about lying about trivial things such as surname and probably age?

                        In 1890 when the trio were tried for assault, her dob is given as 1867 this time. Maybe she just wanted people (Men?) to think she was younger than she actually was? Also it's possible that she wasn't sober or at least hungover on many of the occasions when she was asked her dob?

                        snap lol...
                        Julie
                        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                        .......I find dead people

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          oh and there is this too:

                          Death:

                          Name: Richard Downham
                          Birth Date: abt 1869
                          Date of Registration: Jun 1935
                          Age at Death: 66
                          Registration district: Lancaster
                          Inferred County: Lancashire
                          Volume: 8e
                          Page: 958
                          Julie
                          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                          .......I find dead people

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            I'm back! See you have both been busy.

                            Isn't it odd though - although the one who died in the workhouse isn't yours, yours seems to have followed a similar path in life.

                            Kaye - I think if you got Catherine's death cert, that would confirm she was Richard's wife (and therefore your relative).

                            I think it was quite common that people didn't know how old they were and they didn't care either, I don't think they told deliberate lies. Also, Kate is a very common diminutive of Catherine so not a lie either. It is very unlikly that she filled in the census form herself.

                            Do you know of any other children?

                            OC

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Hi Oc

                              I agree - I have come across many age discrepancies during my searches and name problems too. Most of my problems have been ancestors using their middle names rather than their christian names lol Judging from the state Catherine seems to have been in a lot of the time, I doubt she knew for sure when she was born - I don't suppose she cared, it really wasn't important.

                              The Kate and Richard in 1891 I am not sure about as it's in Kendal - seems strange that in 1890 they were in Lancaster and certainly they married in 1894 in Lancaster, but were in Kendal in 1891? But I still can't find Catherine/Kate in 1891 anywhere else.

                              The only children I know of for Catherine are James Henry Baker b1886, Isabella Hayton b1888 and now Martin Downham b/d1894.
                              Kaye x

                              Everyday in every way my life is getting better!

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Kaye LaLa View Post
                                I am only sure of Isabella because she is down as James Henry's next of kin on his Marine Service Record. The addresses are difficult to read as they have been crossed out a number of times, but one is definitely West Derby Road, Lancaster. There is one that seems different but I can't read it - if either of you can access it maybe you will have a better idea?
                                if you would like I can have a look at the image if you have it, either post it on here or if you would like you could email it me..
                                Julie
                                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                .......I find dead people

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Oh, but look at this!

                                  KATE Baker 1867 Pendleton Salford. no mmn given but isn't Pendleton where James Henry was born?

                                  I don't think the 1861 Catherine Baker born Wigan is yours as Lancsbmd gives the mother's maiden name as Lowe.

                                  The other one born in 1861 has maiden name Doherty...and that couple has a son called Martin....

                                  What about Richard Hayton Downham born 1891. He married (Elizabeth Wilson in 1912) and they had lots of children so probably some descendants out there.

                                  OC

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Julie - I can put the record on here, but it's a big record and you need to zoom in, so not sure if it would work? I can try.

                                    OC - now I'm confused lol

                                    James Henry was born in Wigan I think. He has put Lancaster as his place of birth on the army records. He was also in Lancaster workhouse.

                                    I am not sure on Mary Baker's maiden name - I know I put McCormick, but that's not definite. I know that Mary and Martin are from Ireland and that's about it. I don't know the origins of the name Lowe, but Doherty sounds Irish?

                                    There are relatives in Scotland, but I'm confused because there are a couple from Ireland called Martin and Mary Baker there as well? I've asked David (the relative with the info) about this as I am completely confused - it looks to me like the same people, but there's no sign of Catherine?

                                    I haven't seen Richard Hayton Downham - I assume that would be another child of Catherine and Richard?

                                    The plot thickens and I admit I'm struggling to keep up lol
                                    Kaye x

                                    Everyday in every way my life is getting better!

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      This gets worse lol

                                      James Henry Baker was born in Wigan, but I've just looked on Lancs bmd and it says his Mother's maiden name was Wills!!! I'm not sure now if this is the right James or the right Catherine? As far as I knew Catherine had James out of wedlock. I'm really confused now - any ideas anyone???
                                      Kaye x

                                      Everyday in every way my life is getting better!

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        have sent you a PM with my email addy on Kaye

                                        what we really need to do is to find Martin/Mary/Bridget marriage census as well, might help pull all this into some sort of order.
                                        Julie
                                        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                        .......I find dead people

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          I've sent you an email Julie with the Military Record attached

                                          I've heard back from David and apparently the Bakers in Scotland are indeed Catherine Bakers Parents! There is some discrepancy with her birth - she doesn't show on the 1861 or 1871 Census along with the rest of her family? She was also born in Lancashire and not Scotland. I've asked about her Mother's Maiden Name to see if that sheds any light on the matter.
                                          Kaye x

                                          Everyday in every way my life is getting better!

                                          Comment

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