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Who was this Phoebe then, in Epping in 1901 with her parents? (born c1894)
Jay
Jay
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Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 31-10-14, 16:21.Janet in Yorkshire
Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree -
Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View PostWho was this Phoebe then, in Epping in 1901 with her parents? (born c1894)
Jay
Hi Jay, that Phoebe (parents Moses & Alice Tredgett) is Phoebe Elizabeth's 1st cousin.
Moses Street & George Street were brothers
I am still waiting for my verification email from Seax (Essex Ancestors) to arrive. Every time you renew a sub to search the parish records, they send you a confirmation email which you have to click on to get in. They usually send it straight away, but its been 5 hours now & I still haven't received it. I'm chomping at the bit to search for Annie's baptism.Last edited by Sandra; 31-10-14, 18:40.Comment
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But isn't she the girl the birth reg is for - Q4 1893, Epping?
IF she is, then you need a different birth reg for your Phoebe.
JayJanet in Yorkshire
Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family treeComment
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Sorry to labour the point, but family search has Phoebe GLEED marrying Horace Smith 5 Dec 1907 ?????
JayJanet in Yorkshire
Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family treeComment
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Janet
I agree, I can't find a Phoebe Street birth reg either (except for the Epping one) (and nor can I find a Phoebe Gleed!)
Randel (1893) and Florence (1896) were both registered as Gleed and as Phoebe is 20 in 1911, she would have been born c 1891 when her mother was still Gleed.
Sandra - I think you are going to have to buy a few certs to sort all this out.
As an aside - the Street family in Epping didn't half have a lot of twins!
OCComment
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Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View Post
Lol Jay, sorry I was being a bit thick there...yes, you are right
Both the cousins were born within 3 days of each other I can only find one birth reg which is the last quarter 1893 in Epping, which I assume was Moses & Alice's Phoebe. As George & Matilda's Phoebe was born in Canning Town (West Ham) according to the 1911 census...but I can't find a birth reg in West Ham to confirm this.
According to the death records on Ancestry - Phoebe Elizabeth Smith nee Street, was born 5th November 1893 and died 1984 in Tower Hamlets.
and Phoebe Lawrence nee Street, was born on 2nd November 1893 & died 1989 in Epping Forest.
This is why I really need the Seax website to verify my email so I can search the baptisms, that way I will know for sure where both Phoebes were born
..and hopefully find the elusive Annie!Comment
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Well, unless Phoebe's marriage was illegal, when she married in 1907, she would have had to have been at least 16 yrs old, making her year of birth 1891 at the latest.
I can't find a Phoebe Gleed birth registration, but then I can't find her mother either in 1891 census.
Remember, information given at registration of a death was only as good as the knowledge/assumption of the informant.
JayLast edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 31-10-14, 21:44.Janet in Yorkshire
Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family treeComment
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I thought the minimum legal age for marriage did not change to 16 until 1929? Before that girls could marry at 12. Not that many of them did!
AnneLast edited by Anne in Carlisle; 31-10-14, 21:53.Comment
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Thanks for that Anne - I thought it had changed by about 1900, but you could well be right! I know the school leaving age was supposedly raised to 14 in 1918, although some children still left at 12, if they had a certificate to say they'd reached the required standard. So perhaps you could be married but still made to attend school!!Originally posted by Anne in Carlisle View Post
Incidentally, Matilda was economical with the truth. When she completed the form in 1911, she said she had been married 21 years (1890) when we know they married in 1898. I think this is to cover up the fact that known children were born 1891 onwards.
JayLast edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 31-10-14, 22:07.Janet in Yorkshire
Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family treeComment
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Very few girls did actually marry under 16....but gypsy girls quite often did! But what is her age on the marriage cert?
OCComment
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I've been able to look at the Barking marriage register. Horace was 19, Phoebe 17 when they married on 5 Dec 1907, fathers name and occ was left blank (line through space) for both.Judith passed away in October 2018Comment
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Thankyou Judith - the ages seem likely to be correct because if they were going to lie then they would say they were 21 I reckon, especially as neither can name a father.
So, that makes Phoebe born c 1891, which accords with the census.
Sandra, where did the story come from that thy were born within days of each other, please? (Meaning, how reliable is it, lol)
OCComment
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OC - see post 26, where Sandra gives details of the death registrations she has found for both girls. This information includes a birth date for each, but as we know, it is only as good as the knowledge of the informant.Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
I wonder if perhaps their birthdays (as indicated on a calendar) were within 3 days of each other and over the years, their families have come to think that it was the actual birthdates (which would include a year) that were within 3 days of each other?? Also, if Phoebe (nee Gleed) had no birth certificate, it would have been harder for her family to be certain of her age/year of birth.
JayLast edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 01-11-14, 09:57.Janet in Yorkshire
Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family treeComment
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Here is the 1911 census record for Horace & Phoebe Smith
Phoebe is recorded at home, along with Horace & 2 little sons. Her place of birth is given as Colchester. Both she & Horace were hawkers and have added "English gipsy" for nationality.
JayLast edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 01-11-14, 10:14.Janet in Yorkshire
Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family treeComment
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Ah yes, I forgot about the death records but of course they are only as accurate as the informant's knowledge as you say.
Post #14 - can I just check something please?
Florence - is she Florence GLEED registered 1896 Jun WHam 4a 150?
And Lizzie - is she definitely Elizabeth May (Sep 1902 4a 139) and not Caroline Elizabeth (Sep 1902 WHam 4a 159)?
OCComment
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I think Florence was registered as Gleed, as per the record you found OC. (I can't find a similar appropriate record for a Florence Street.)
With regards to Lizzie, I think we need some documentation linking names of the child & her parents - birth cert, bp record, even details of the marriage entry with father's name & occupation would help.
Like all gipsy families, they seem to have upheld the tradition of using the same family connected forenames in each branch :(
JayJanet in Yorkshire
Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family treeComment
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Thank you all so much for trying to sort all this out for me, I have been looking at the baptism records for churches in Canning Town this morning for Annie & Randle, and even a Justice and my eyes are bleeding, and I’ve only managed two!!
This line is only related to me via marriage, my direct gypsy line is the ‘Lee’ family. The Lee’s intermarried into the Street family on a lot of occasions. My g-grans two sisters married two Street brothers and another of my g-grans sisters married the Street brothers cousin.... there are more intermarriages between the families further back too. So a hell of a lot of my nan’s cousins are Streets.
Right this is where I got my first info from.... Back in 2005 I was in contact with a lady who is Genty ‘Hope’ Streets granddaughter. She had been doing her branch eg Genty’s siblings parents etc for a few years. It was her that gave me death reg dates (as Ancestry has upgraded no end since then, they have the actual death dates now...supposedly)
I have since lost contact and email address with this lady (have also gone though 3 computers) Luckily I always back up my gedcom to disc and a memory stick, but everything else was lost to a frazzled computer including emails that I kept... lesson since learnt!
She also told me about the marriages as she had certs (I don’t have copies)... Back in 2005 I was very busy with my own Street line’s (Nan’s cousins) so this line was put on the back-burner for a ‘to do later’ time.
Just so you see how they fit in, Phoebe & Genty’s father George Street b1866 is the brother to Daniel Street who married my g-grans sister Rose Lee, and also brother to Leonard Street who married my g-grans sister Jane Lee... Moses Street (father of the Epping Phoebe) was also a brother.
Just to confuse you a bit more, George Street & Matilda Gleed married the same day and in the same church as his cousin Belchar Street and my g-grans sister Betsy Lee... they were each others witnesses.
...now as I was saying, as this lady in 2005 seemed to have a lot of info on George & Matilda & descendants (as George & Matilda were her g-grandparents) I didn’t delve any deeper into this line for 9 years...until the other day as I had totally forgotten all about it.
Last week there was a lady on the Canning Town page on Facebook put a photo up of her mother (still living) with a very familiar unusual first name beginning with G! I recognised the name immediately as a granddaughter of George & Matilda. I contacted this lady, she had no idea about any of her family so I am trying ...and mostly not succeeding, to fill her in.
Oh and I know from experience that gypsies tell fibs all the time lol... They have wonderful exotic names, but then change it to Mary or John Smith for the census. most of them were illiterate so the enumerator had to write down what he heard phonetically, and they all had heavy Romany accents which made it harder. They can be quite generous with their dates of birth, but they do tend to stick to the place of birth...usually it was in case they needed parish help.....and they had lots & lots of children! Who ever said that gypsies steal children was mad, they had so many of their own that they really didn’t have the room for any more! My nan was one of 17, her aunt Jane Lee & Leonard Street had 15 children for example all living in Canning Town.
(Post 31) Thank you so much for that Judith
Jay (post 33) that's a very good point!
....but I'm sure that's not them in the 1911 Barking census.
From the notes that the lady gave me in 2005, Copied exactly as she wrote them - Horace Smith married Phoebe Street and had Bert Smith, Horace Smith, Kenny Smith, Phoebe Smith (b20th March 1912 Canning Town died 1988 Canning Town) Daisy Smith (b20th March 1914 Canning Town, died 1999 Canning Town) Walter Smith & Albert Smith ...... there were only two dates, I have yet to confirm all the dob's etc.
So would have thought they would have stayed around the Canning Town area & not ventured into Barking, and Phoebe certainly wasn't born in Colchester.
I am just so grateful for all your help, as last night the more I was looking the less I was seeing if that makes sense. So new eyes and new ideas are fantastic, I really appreciate it, thank you
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...and, like all gypsy families, they are shape shifters when it comes to giving facts to the authorities!
I've recently read several true books by modern day gypsies and the fact comes through quite strongly that the names they were known by to the authorities were not their real gypsy names. They have a superstition (along with many other cultures and ethnic minorities) that if you tell your enemy your real name you give him power over you. I'm not suggesting the Street family used exactly false names, but I think they were probably quite loose with who was called what.
Perhaps the baptisms will sort things out a bit, but it is looking quite doubtful that the children born before the marriage were actually George's children.
OCComment
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Sandra
I posted before I saw your post above, snap for a lot of things lol.
OCComment
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Sandra, I think Phoebe was recorded twice in 1911. Her mother recorded her at the parental home as Feeby Street, married, hawker, LIVING AT BARKING, the enumerator has noted her as a visitor. (Not uncommon for people to be recorded at homa and away.)
So I think the 1911 Barking record is for her and her family. I had a bit of job to locate Horace, but not surprising, as he recorded himself as Horras. I can't make head nor tail of the sons' forenames, but what looks like Holby could be Horry jun. Pendavila (no corresponding birth reg, but that's no shock) could be ANYTHING, including a Ken.........??
Do you have access to Ancestry? If not, it might be worth your while to have a session at your local library. Check first, but most have the library edition of Ancestry, which can be used at NO charge,. If you could see the actual census returns (and view the other possibilities for candidates with the same names) I think it would help you to place all the different families.
Fibbing to officialdom wasn't just a gipsy trait - most of us will have examples in our trees of people bending the facts to suit the image they wanted to portray e.g children being known by step-father's surname, ages and length of time married distorted, nicknames being used on census forms. I suspect this was more common in 1911 when most householders completed themselves the forms we see.
I also think we might have to take the Colchester place birth with a pinch of salt; however as yet I don't know where Matilda and baby Phoebe were in 1891. From looking at public trees on Ancestry, there is an implication that Matilda's mother had died and father had remarried; so Matilda could have gone to any relative (or family friend) for support with her first confinement. Colchester, in Essex, is a move outwards from Epping Forest; it was also a big garrison town, so not beyond the realms of possibility that Matilda had got involved with a soldier!
I'm always inclined to try to think outside the box - ANYTHING is possible, until we come across enough evidence to discount it.;D
JayLast edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 01-11-14, 13:18.Janet in Yorkshire
Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family treeComment
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