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  • Offering free assistance on French Genealogy

    Dear all,

    I am new on this forum and I thought that although Pascal is already offering some help on French records, a second native French researcher with over 20 years of experience would not be too many. After all, there are 11 millions americans with French heritage in the US and many more in Canada!

    So, if you need help on guidance, translations, even conduct some of the research (limited to my availability of course), just go ahead and ask!

    I can look at everything that is online:
    - most of France's civil and parrish records (birth, death and marriages)
    - census (for many places in France)
    - military records for ALL men born after 1847. also available for many.
    - some free and subscribed data bases (geneanet, Genweb - Lafayette, France, Memorial etc.)
    - Légion d'Honneur (one of the highest distinctions)
    - many more (cemeteries, 20th century France's casualties of war...)

    I cannot go physically to local archives for further investigation as I live 10,000 miles away from France! However, I know a few people in France who maybe able to assist us with reasearches at :
    - the National Archives (for Passports requests, immigration TO france etc), some of Navy records
    - Military records if your ancestor was in the military (other than privates and lower ranked officers during WW1 and WW2)I personnaly own many documents that would help to find out weither your ancestor can be found in this archives before even go there; Many would also a have a military pension (including privates). These latter records are also available
    - Diplomatic archives for French citizens born outside of France (La Courneuve near Paris)

    I really hope that help and please do feel free to contact me should you have any questions

    Romain

  • #2
    Hi Romain

    Thanks for the great offer! I wonder if you may be able to find any more info regarding one of my relatives who moved to France from England? He was born George Farnan, baptised 15-May-1826 in Westminster England. He was in London on the 1841 census but not 1851, so presumably he left England during that time. He married Louise Pons in Lyon 3-Jun-1854. He was a tin-plate worker ("ferblantier"). They had four children in Lyon: George Henry (5-Apr-1855), Jules Edouard Frederic (26-May-1856), Auguste James (23-Aug-1859, died 27-Aug-1860) and Jeanne Clarisse (1-May-1863). I haven't found the deaths of George or Louise in Lyon so I presume they moved from that city. Their daughter Jeanne Clarisse married in Paris in 1893 and also on her birth registration is a marginal note giving her death as 19-Jun-1955 also in Paris, so maybe the parents also moved to Paris? Their son Jules died in Nice on 2-Jun-1930 so that's another possibility.

    I also haven't found the death of their son George Henry - he married his cousin back in England in 1878, however he was not with his wife in 1881 (she was with her parents in London), and she was shown as widowed by 1891. There is no death for George Henry Farnan in England between 1878-1891 so it is possible that he returned to France.

    Incidentally, son Jules also married a cousin (Jane Ann Gedling) in England. He moved to New York and ran an import business with his brother-in-law Arthur Azema (the husband of Jeanne Clarisse), and he travelled regularly between USA & France. As mentioned, he died in Nice in 1930 (according to his probate notice), and his wife also died in Nice, in 1953.

    Any help you can give with filling in the gaps for this family would be most appreciated! In particular, the deaths of George & Louise, the death of their son George Henry, or if you can find any of them on census that would be great!

    regards,
    Richard
    Last edited by Richard in Perth; 22-08-14, 05:13.

    Comment


    • #3
      Romain - I should have checked again before posting the above, but I have just found that George & Louise, and also Jules, are buried at Passy Cemetery, Paris (www.findagrave.com). George died 1902 and Louise 1921. However the record does not say where they died or give the exact date. There is also an Ann Farnan listed there (1864-1903) - I'm not sure where she fits in, though she could be Jules wife Jane Ann (1864-1953) if the date of death is incorrect.

      cheers, Richard.

      Comment


      • #4
        Dear Richard,

        I will try to help with pleasure! Plus you're my neighbour (I live ONLY 7 hours away from Australia, in Tahiti)

        - Have you found any other wedding record other than Clarisse's?
        - Is George mentionned on Clarisse's marriage record? it should or at least have a clue he is dead or alive on the day of the marriage. If he's alive, the document usually states the place of residence of the parents.
        - A clue: have you found the male children's military records? ONLY If they had French citizenship should you look into these. These records are created when EACH man must check in at the local military office at the age of 20. Henry, Jules and James all being born after 1847 (date these records start) should have one, if they had French citizenship of course. The document usually shows the differents addresses the person has lived in until the age of 30 (and being free from military obligations). It shows also the address of the parents.
        - Clarisse's death record: have you checked the address of where she died? Be careful, it could simply be a hospital and her real address is elsewhere!
        - Have you checked Nice's records?

        I will have a look at different online sources I know and will let you know what I find.

        Kind regards

        Romain

        Comment


        • #5
          Dear Richard,

          re: the 2nd email
          the place of burial is not necessarely the place of death (Paris in this case) as you know. But that is a track to follow!
          Please note that in France, most of the time, women's burial are recorded with their married name. So we do not know if Ann is a Farnan by birth or by marriage...

          Romain

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Richard,

            just went through the death 10-year index of each one of the 20 districts of Paris and could not find the Geroges's record... He did not die in Paris.
            I will have a look at the towns near Cimetière de Passy but this searcg is a bit shooting in the dark!

            Romain

            Comment


            • #7
              No trace in the immediate vicinity of Paris either.

              I could not see any Farnan either in the military records in Lyons (includes Lyons "city" and region).
              It would be useful to find all the marriage records of the children and see if something helps regarding Georges.
              Could you please provide me with the exact details of Clarisse's marriage (date, name of the husband, and Paris's district number if possible)?
              Do you speak French at all?

              Romain
              Last edited by Moorea; 22-08-14, 08:39.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Romain

                Unfortunately I do not have the marriage record for Jeanne Clarisse, only her marriage banns (these are on Ancestry.com). They give her address as "Lyon" and her parents as Georges and Louise (Pons), however they do not say if her parents were alive or not at the time (19-Mar-1893). However the burial record that I just found at Passy suggest that George died in 1902 and Louise in 1921.

                Of the three sons, I only have the marriage record for the eldest (George Henry) which was at Chelsea, London 16-Apr-1878. However, on re-checking this I see that he gave his address as Dordrecht, Holland - so it seems that he may have left France by this time. The second son, Jules Edouard, also married in Chelsea. I don't have his marriage certificate but the date was 3-Aug-1901 (this from his USA passport application). Jules became a naturalized USA citizen on 22-Sep-1888 - his naturalization certificate states that his previous nationality was British, so is is possible that he was never a French citizen even though he was born there. The third son, Auguste James, died as an infant (his death is registered in Lyon, 27-Aug-1860). It is quite possible, therefore, that there will not be any military records for this family.

                I also do not have the death record for the daughter, Jeanne Clarisse. I only know the date and place of her death because on her birth registration from Lyon there is a note in the margin where someone has added "Decedee a Paris 16e Arrt le 19 Juin 1955".

                I also do not have any records from Nice. There is a UK probate record for Jules Farnan which gives his last address as "Villa Milford-avenue Scuderi Nice Cimiez France" and his date of death as 2-Jun-1930. Also on Ancestry I found a "Report of the Death of an American Citizen Abroad" for Jane Ann Gedling Farnan, which states the same address in Nice, and the date of death 18-Sep-1953. Interestingly, this report also gives the address of her sister-in-law, Clara Azema: "49 Rue de la Tour, Paris, 16e". Also it states that Jane's remains were to be "shipped to Paris for burial in family vault in cemetery at Passy". This makes me think that the "Ann Farnan" at Passy (1864-1903) is actually Jane Ann, and the date of death is incorrectly transcribed as 1903 instead of 1953.

                So you can see I have quite a lot of the puzzle but am missing a few key pieces! If you can find any more online that might be relevant that would be great!

                By the way, I am in Perth on the West coast of Australia - so a bit more that 7 hours from Tahiti - it is 5 hours flight for us just to Sydney!

                Regards,
                Richard

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi again Romain

                  Our messages just crossed! As just mentioned, Jeanne Clarisse's death was in "16e arrt" (16th arrondissement?) of Paris, 19-June-1955, according to the note in the birth register at Lyons. Her husband was Marie Arthur Theodore Azema. His address as given on the marriage banns notice was "36 Av. Opera" (presumably Paris) and his parents were Simon and Marie (Appolis). The burial record on www.findagrave.com has his year of death as 1925. Hopefully he died in the same district as Jeanne Clarisse? I also do not have his birth record, which would have been about 1851 according to the burial record.

                  I speak a little bit of French but am by no means fluent!

                  Richard

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Richard,

                    Good news!
                    Just found the actual marriage record.
                    the banns are to be showed for 3 weeks minimum before the actual marriage. The bann document you have and that I also found on a french website is dated 19 march and corresponds to date of the bann NOT the marriage.
                    Also this bann is for the city of Lyons; NOT Paris.
                    The wedding took place on 21 April 1893 in Lyons (3rd arrondissement). Here is the link to the 10 year index (see bottom right: http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyo...df4w76k4cbbd6p)
                    the actual marriage record is here: http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyo...52hf62jwkgcrvt
                    We learn that at the date of the wedding she lives Cours Gambetta, 64 at her parents. They both live in Lyon on 1893 but could not find Georges's death record in this city either.
                    I will keep investigating and let you know

                    Romain

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Romain,
                      When you have finished helping Richard I'd be grateful if you could have a look for the birth of Frederic(k) Maurice Ley born about 1855 in Lyons - this information is from the 1891 census http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=7572 where he is listed as Morris but that is definitely him.

                      From his UK marriage certificate dated 31 May 1876 he says his father is Frederic Ley - I will find and post a snap of that.

                      I cannot find Frederick in the UK census before 1881 so maybe he was still in France before that.

                      Any help would be most appreciated.
                      Margaret
                      Last edited by margaretmarch; 22-08-14, 10:15.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ...and Georges is a Foreman in a factory

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Romain

                          Many thanks for locating the marriage record for Jeanne Clarisse. From my rather basic French, am I correct in reading that Marie Arthur Azema was born 22-Dec-1851 at Montpellier? Anyway we now know that the Farnans were still alive and living in Lyons in 1893, so that is very useful info.

                          regards,
                          Richard

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Dear Margaret,

                            I am afraid I have not found Frederic's birth record in Lyons' online records between 1843-1862. I did find the surname "Ley" but none of the given names or the name of the father were matching.
                            I could not find him on other data bases I have access to.
                            Tomorrow I will have a look at other records, but it is a bit time consuming and it is now midnight here in Polynesia!
                            Speak to you later

                            PS: I could not access your Ancestry link because I am not a member. Can you do a screen shot?

                            Romain

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Dear Richard,

                              you are correct. He was a Salesman (négociant) and both his parents are dead.

                              So Georges is not dead in Lyon and not dead in Paris... this is a mystery!

                              As for Clarisse's death record, it would be quite easy to get at no cost if you are interested.Just make a request on the Paris civil record's office. They are very efficient and since the record is older than 50 years it is public access: https://teleservices.paris.fr/etatci...ine&form=deces
                              Just tell me if you need any help with this. This document will probably not give any info on georges but at least you will be able to complete a bit of the puzzle!

                              Kind regards

                              Romain

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Hi Romain

                                Many thanks for your help. I have applied for a copy of Jeanne Clarisse's death certificate as you suggested. I might also apply for a copy of her husband Arthur Azema's death, must assume that he died in the same arrondissement.

                                I found on another site (http://www.gravestonephotos.com/publ...?cemetery=2061) that there are seven members of this family named on the memorial at Passy. I have requested a copy of the photo from the site, but I was wondering if the cemetery would have more information, such as date and place of death of those interred there? Do the French cemeteries keep registers like they do in England, and is it possible to apply for a copy of this info? According to the site I found, the info on the memorial is as follows (with my notes in brackets as to who I think they are):

                                Name, birth year, burial year, age:
                                Georges Azema..1897, 1918, 21 (son of Arthur & Jeanne Clarisse, killed in WW1)
                                Georges Farnan..1826, 1902, 76 (George Farnan, born London 1826)
                                Louise Farnan.....1833, 1921, 88 (Louise Pons, wife of George)
                                Arthur Azema.....1851, 1925, 74 (husband of Jeanne Clarisse)
                                Ann Farnan........1864, 1903, 39 (Jane Ann Gedling, wife of Jules Farnan - actually died 1953 in Nice)
                                Jules Farnan.......1850, 1930, 80 (son of George & Louise, died 1930 in Nice)
                                Clarisse Azema...1865, 1955, 90 (daughter of George & Louise, died 1955 in Paris)

                                Strange then if George & Louise did not die in Paris, why would they have a family grave there?

                                Regards,
                                Richard

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Moorea View Post
                                  Dear Margaret,

                                  I am afraid I have not found Frederic's birth record in Lyons' online records between 1843-1862. I did find the surname "Ley" but none of the given names or the name of the father were matching.
                                  I could not find him on other data bases I have access to.
                                  Tomorrow I will have a look at other records, but it is a bit time consuming and it is now midnight here in Polynesia!
                                  Speak to you later

                                  PS: I could not access your Ancestry link because I am not a member. Can you do a screen shot?

                                  Romain
                                  Thanks you so much for looking. Here's a screenshot of the 1891 census. 1891 Frederick Maurice Ley screenshot.jpg

                                  Margaret

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Hi Richard,

                                    The fact that Ann who died died in Nice is in this grave shows that it was not a problem for this family to transfer a body cross country and they might have some means.
                                    Also, since this did not seem to be an issue, George could have died anywhere!

                                    With regards to Cemetary records, there are information such as:
                                    - the date of the burrial (not of the death)
                                    - where the body is coming from before entering the cemetary (hospital, morgue etc.)
                                    - the age of the person or the date of birth
                                    - the grave location and the construction type (marble, stone, iron etc.)
                                    - if it is a single grave or a family/ group etc.
                                    - if a body had to be moved, unearthed and re-burried (that happened to one of my ancestor, the whole was not deep enough!).

                                    other records also show the information on the actual grave. in France until recently you could "buy" the location of the grave for life or for a shorter period of time. the 2nd records will show that and who paid for it. in case it is not a "life" one, it will state who "owns" it and the name and contact details of the people to contact in order to "renew" the purchase.
                                    Due to lack of space in Cemetaries (especially in the big cities) there are no longer life ownership of a grave location in France.

                                    Once you know where Clarisse died, one thing that could be done is to look for the record of "body transportation". This log is filled out by the local administration with the information provided by the police.
                                    You cannot simply just move a dead person from A to B, all kind of procedures have to be done (at least by the administration).
                                    This record will provide you with some info on the level of wealth the person/family had (who pays for the transport, quality and price of the coffin, which cemetary it is going to and which grave etc.
                                    SOSA 000022 - Déplacement de corps - Jules François Michaud.jpg

                                    You could write to the cemetary explaining that you cannot do the search yourself due to fact that the commute who be a "small" issue from Australia. please note that cemetary staff have no obligation to answer but they usually do... with time!

                                    the address is :
                                    Cimetière de Passy
                                    2 Rue du Commandant Schloesing,
                                    75016 Paris, France

                                    please let me know if you need a quick letter in French, i'll send it to you. Just send your version in English and I'lll translate it.

                                    Kind regards

                                    Romain

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Hi Richard,

                                      The fact that Ann who died died in Nice is in this grave shows that it was not a problem for this family to transfer a body cross country and they might have some means.
                                      Also, since this did not seem to be an issue, George could have died anywhere!

                                      With regards to Cemetary records, there are information such as:
                                      - the date of the burrial (not of the death)
                                      - where the body is coming from before entering the cemetary (hospital, morgue etc.)
                                      - the age of the person or the date of birth
                                      - the grave location and the construction type (marble, stone, iron etc.)
                                      - if it is a single grave or a family/ group etc.
                                      - if a body had to be moved, unearthed and re-burried (that happened to one of my ancestor, the whole was not deep enough!).

                                      other records also show the information on the actual grave. in France until recently you could "buy" the location of the grave for life or for a shorter period of time. the 2nd records will show that and who paid for it. in case it is not a "life" one, it will state who "owns" it and the name and contact details of the people to contact in order to "renew" the purchase.
                                      Due to lack of space in Cemetaries (especially in the big cities) there are no longer life ownership of a grave location in France.

                                      Once you know where Clarisse died, one thing that could be done is to look for the record of "body transportation". This log is filled out by the local administration with the information provided by the police.
                                      You cannot simply just move a dead person from A to B, all kind of procedures have to be done (at least by the administration).
                                      This record will provide you with some info on the level of wealth the person/family had (who pays for the transport, quality and price of the coffin, which cemetary it is going to and which grave etc.

                                      here is an example:


                                      You could write to the cemetary explaining that you cannot do the search yourself due to fact that the commute who be a "small" issue from Australia. please note that cemetary staff have no obligation to answer but they usually do... with time!

                                      the address is :
                                      Cimetière de Passy
                                      2 Rue du Commandant Schloesing,
                                      75016 Paris, France

                                      please let me know if you need a quick letter in French, i'll send it to you. Just send your version in English and I'lll translate it.

                                      Kind regards

                                      Romain

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Many thanks once again, Romain. I will wait until I receive the death certs for Jeanne Clarisse and (hopefully) Arthur Azema, and also until I get the gravestone photo from the www.gravestonephotos.com website. Once I have these I will compile what I know and draft a letter to send to the cemetery. If you could then assist with the translation, that would be most appreciated!

                                        I did find one more piece of information - a passenger list for Arthur & Jeanne Clarisse Azema when they visited New York in 1909 (as I mentioned before, Arthur ran an import business with his brother-in-law Jules Farnan who had emigrated to USA in 1879). Anyway, the passenger list names their nearest relative in France as "mother: Mrs Farnan, 64 Rue de la Tour, Paris". This therefore suggests that (1) Mr Farnan (George) had died by 1909 (which fits with the cemetery info); (2) Mrs Farnan (Louise) was alive in 1909 (again, fits with cemetery info); (3) that Louise was living in Paris before she died. Also I see from Google Maps that Rue de la Tour is in the 16th arrondissement, which is where Jeanne Clarisse died and in fact is very close to the Passy cemetery. Incidentally, the death notice for Jules' wife Jane Ann Gedling Farnan in 1953 gave Jeanne Clarisse's address as 49 Rue de la Tour, so she evidently didn't move very far in the intervening 44 years!

                                        Anyway, thanks once again for all your help so far, I'll let you know once I have the death certs.

                                        Kind regards,
                                        Richard

                                        Comment

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