Offering free assistance on French Genealogy

[Moorea]

Dear Sue,

the info is rather thin indeed!
ok let's start from the begining!

The French institute of statistics states that from 1891 and 1990 only 2 births were recorded in the entire country! both in the Paris area.
Could this be an exiled family from any of the 3 French Revolutions?

I have some questions:
1- How do you know she was born in France?
2- What documents do you have or you are refering to that provide ANY information on her (her marriage or the fact she was born in France for instance)?
3- Do you know any siblings she might have had?
4- You know Camille's date of birth. Where did you get the information?
5- Have you been able to get a copy of her death certificate?
6- Do you know anything about the daughter? Where she got married etc.
7- I assume you have no information on her parents... Maybe on her death record?
8- Where is she buried? Is there a way you could check the grave and see if there are other names on the grave stone which could give us some clues?

Please let me know, I will look in different data bases on my side
Romain

[Moorea]

As with a lot of family tree research we can only go on the information provided by the individual on the records we can find and Frederic Ley deceased pensioner was given as the father's name in 1876 but of course we don't know if this is true or accurate.

Margaret

Hello Margaret,

I could not find any trace of any birth with this last name in Lyons between 1813 and 1842. That reinforces my thoughts on the fact that this family is NOT from Lyon.

As I found a lot of this name in Alsace and Lorraine, I will check what I can find there.

Romain

[Giddysue]

Dear Sue,

the info is rather thin indeed!
ok let's start from the begining!

The French institute of statistics states that from 1891 and 1990 only 2 births were recorded in the entire country! both in the Paris area.
Could this be an exiled family from any of the 3 French Revolutions?

I have some questions:
1- How do you know she was born in France?
2- What documents do you have or you are refering to that provide ANY information on her (her marriage or the fact she was born in France for instance)?
3- Do you know any siblings she might have had?
4- You know Camille's date of birth. Where did you get the information?
5- Have you been able to get a copy of her death certificate?
6- Do you know anything about the daughter? Where she got married etc.
7- I assume you have no information on her parents... Maybe on her death record?
8- Where is she buried? Is there a way you could check the grave and see if there are other names on the grave stone which could give us some clues?

Please let me know, I will look in different data bases on my side
Romain

Dear Romain,

Many thanks for your reply, yes I agree the information I have is very scant.

I have no firm proof as to where Camille originated from apart from word of mouth passed on by family members who all stated Camille was French by birth and that she was born on 18th July 1889. Camille's disabled daughter, Christiane, died in 1980 ie before Camille's demise in 1983. There are no living persons who can supply concrete details of Camille's parentage.

Death certificate provides no additional information and I can locate no details of Camilles's marriage to William (not even on overseas marriages sites).

I appreciate my request was a 'long shot' in view of the extremely limited records so I am very grateful for the time you have spent investigating on my behalf.

Kind regards
Sue

[Moorea]

Dear Romain,

Many thanks for your reply, yes I agree the information I have is very scant.

I have no firm proof as to where Camille originated from apart from word of mouth passed on by family members who all stated Camille was French by birth and that she was born on 18th July 1889. Camille's disabled daughter, Christiane, died in 1980 ie before Camille's demise in 1983. There are no living persons who can supply concrete details of Camille's parentage.

Death certificate provides no additional information and I can locate no details of Camilles's marriage to William (not even on overseas marriages sites).

I appreciate my request was a 'long shot' in view of the extremely limited records so I am very grateful for the time you have spent investigating on my behalf.

Kind regards
Sue

Would you have an access to the grave to see if there are other names?
Are ALL UK census showing the same info? would there be one showing that she is actually from France and even maybe her place of origin.

I assume you went through all available data bases (ancestry etc.)

Kind regards

Romain

[Moorea]

do you know wo attended the funeral (siblings etc.)?

[Moorea]

if only we had at least a region or any idea of the area, we could do a long time consuming work of consulting all the records of the area... but here she could have been born anywhere in the country.

In France birth record are logged at "town/city" level. which mean that if you do not know the town you have zero chance of finding the person unless going through the 35568 towns/villages/cities! It would make things much easier too if she was a man (military records, voting lists etc.)

Unless we find a clue as to where she is from... it is just shooting in the dark.

please let me know about the grave. Maybe we'd find out about a sibling and/or a relative we'll be able to follow the track.
Same for the funeral.

Romain

[margaretmarch]

Hello Margaret,

I could not find any trace of any birth with this last name in Lyons between 1813 and 1842. That reinforces my thoughts on the fact that this family is NOT from Lyon.

As I found a lot of this name in Alsace and Lorraine, I will check what I can find there.

Romain

Thanks a lot Romain - it's really good of you to take the time - if you need any help with UK searching do say and I'll be glad to help.

Margaret

[Moorea]

Thanks a lot Romain - it's really good of you to take the time - if you need any help with UK searching do say and I'll be glad to help.

Margaret

Dear Margaret,

Unfortunately, I have run out of available ressources. I wanted to check the military records for Meurthe et Moselle in Lorraine Region but they are not online. I found a Frederic Ley born in 1835... Funny enough one of his son named "Frederic" too, married in Lyon. However, he was born in 1893 and got married in the 20's.

Romain

[Moorea]

Hi Romain,

I would be so grateful if you could find any details for Camille Jeanne Rozant de Mazilly who was born on 18.July.1889 somewhere in France!! Sorry for the very limited information.

I only know that Camille married William Rounsley (no available information on UK records) so I wonder whether the marriage took place in France. Camille gave birth to a daughter at Exeter, Devon, UK in 1919. Camille died at Exeter in 1983.

Any information would be much appreciated.

Kind regards
Sue

Hello Sue,

After doing some research on where this name is from, it appears that it is from Normandy, region between Rouen and Le Havre.
I actually found a few births and marriages with this name in the two cities including a marriage between CAMILLE Rozant de Mazilly (it is also a male given name) with Marie JEANNE Moutier!
I could not find our Camille but I am pretty sure we are close! If she was a "he", I would find out quickly if she is actually from this area thanks to the military records... no many sources for women I am afraid.

I will keep looking in places nearby the 2 cities...

Romain

[margaretmarch]

Dear Margaret,

Unfortunately, I have run out of available ressources. I wanted to check the military records for Meurthe et Moselle in Lorraine Region but they are not online. I found a Frederic Ley born in 1835... Funny enough one of his son named "Frederic" too, married in Lyon. However, he was born in 1893 and got married in the 20's.

Romain

Hi Romain,

Thank you for looking further at this.

Where would the records you mention relating to Meurthe et Moselle in Lorraine region be kept please? It might be possible to make a personal visit to look at them one day!

Margaret

[Frazzled]

Hi Romain

I would be grateful for any help with my Monclar/Lauck family.

Marie Julia Lauck married Gratien Monclar on 27th October 1878 in Paris. Marie’s address is given as 4 Place Vendôme. Her parents were Aloyse Hippolite Lauck and Marie Elizabeth Loyson. Marie was born in Strasbourg in 1857. Gratien’s address is Neuilly but I have no idea where Gratien was born or when.

In 1891 Marie Monclar is living alone in Westminster, she is a widow and her occupation is dressmaker. On 24th December 1892 she marries my relation Paul Klein in St Marys Chapel (a Catholic Church) in St George Hanover Square.

I would like to know if Marie and Gratien Monclar had any children. A name I am especially interested in is Rene Gabriel J Monclar born c1883. He married Gertrude Well in 1910 and I can find him in the 1911 census in London but he has changed his name to Reginald Monclar and he says he was born in London but I cannot find a birth for him. Could you please see if there is a birth registered in Paris?

Sadly Marie died in 1894 after having a daughter with Paul Klein.

Any help would be much appreciated, thank you.

[Moorea]

Dear Margaret,

The military records for this département, would be in Nancy.

Now the good news is that eventually all military records for the country will be online.
In more general terms, France has invested a lot of money in making sure parts of its heritage are available to everyone. That is why most of the country's parrish and civil records are online for free!
Below is the map of France. in colour, records are online, in grey they are being prepared at the moment to be put online.
It is planned that by 2016 the entire country will have its civil records (from 1793) and parrish records (mid 1500's - 1792) online for free.



In addition, most of the above départements have also scanned their military records. Below in red, places that have fully or partly put these records on their website:
There is still a lot of them who have not but they all received the budget to do so. It is estimated that by 2016-2017, all we be online.



Also, many places have additional documents online such as census, navy records, newspapers, pictures, private archives etc.

Why do I tell you this? Be a bit patient, don't go to Nancy (or at least for this purpouse!). At one point in the next couple of years all will be accessible from your couch!

Kind regards

Romain

[Moorea]

Hi Romain

I would be grateful for any help with my Monclar/Lauck family.

Marie Julia Lauck married Gratien Monclar on 27th October 1878 in Paris. Marie’s address is given as 4 Place Vendôme. Her parents were Aloyse Hippolite Lauck and Marie Elizabeth Loyson. Marie was born in Strasbourg in 1857. Gratien’s address is Neuilly but I have no idea where Gratien was born or when.

In 1891 Marie Monclar is living alone in Westminster, she is a widow and her occupation is dressmaker. On 24th December 1892 she marries my relation Paul Klein in St Marys Chapel (a Catholic Church) in St George Hanover Square.

I would like to know if Marie and Gratien Monclar had any children. A name I am especially interested in is Rene Gabriel J Monclar born c1883. He married Gertrude Well in 1910 and I can find him in the 1911 census in London but he has changed his name to Reginald Monclar and he says he was born in London but I cannot find a birth for him. Could you please see if there is a birth registered in Paris?

Sadly Marie died in 1894 after having a daughter with Paul Klein.

Any help would be much appreciated, thank you.

Hi Frazzled,

The marriage did take place on 9 November 1878 in Paris (1st arrondissement - "district").
Here is the link to view it:

http://canadp-archivesenligne.paris.fr/archives_etat_civil/1860_1902_actes/aec_visu_img.php?registre=V4E_02551&type=AEC&&bdd_en_cours=actes_ec_1871_1882&vue_tranche_debut=AD075EC_V4E_02551_0048&vue_tranche_fin=AD075EC_V4E_02551_0048&ref_histo=330&cote=V4E%202551

Gratien is a cook and his date and place of birth are "believed" to be around the 12 Decembre 1842 in Pamier in the département of Ariège... This is the first place to look for him. Unfortunately I cannot help because Ariège is one of the 7 départements (out of a total of 101!) who have not put their archives online... should be there this year though according to what I have read on the web.
Parents are unknown.

For the children, I had a look at the records in Neuilly between 1878 and 1892, no children.
No children either for the same period in the 1st arrondissement of Paris. Need to look at the other 19 arrondissements!

I will let you know about my searches.

Romain

[Frazzled]

Thank you so much Romain for all your work, it is fantastic to be able to view the marriage and get more information.

It's interesting to see that Gratien was about 15 years older than Marie, she went onto marry Paul Klein who was 10 years younger!

Thank you again for your time and I look forward to anything else you may find.

[Frazzled]

Hi Romain

I have just been looking at the marriage cert again and I see that Marie's year of birth is 1851. She seems to have taken some years away in England as on her wedding cert and death reg she is born 1857 so she was in fact only 10 years younger that Gratien and 16 years older than Paul.

[Moorea]

HI Frazzled,

Are you ok with the content of the record or do you need help? Anyway here are the main info:

- Gratien was born maybe in Pamiers (Ariège) around 12 December 1842
- He is a cook and lives in Neuilly

- Marie was born on 12 March 1851 in Pfaffenhofen (Bas-Rhin).
- She is a chambermaid and probably lives in the hotel she works in: (from wikipedia)
L'Hôtel Heuzé de Vologer est situé au n°4. Il formait avec le n°6 l'hôtel du Rhin.

Geoffroy Chalut de Vérin, fermier-général et sa femme Élisabeth de Varanchan achètent le tiers de l'hôtel en 1751, qu'ils louaient depuis 1749.

Le prince Louis-Napoléon Bonaparte, futur Napoléon III, y habita lorsqu'il était président de la République, en 1848.
- Her parents were Hypolithe Aloïse Lauck and Marie Elisabeth Loyson. They are both deceased.

*******************************

Found in the archives of Bas-Rhin for the town of Pfaffenhofen:
- Confirmation of Marie's birth date: here is the RECORD
- Marie had a sister: Barbe Elisabeth, born on 13 June 1849.

- Her parents married on 25 October 1847
- The father was born in Strasbourg and is a school teacher
- The mother was born in Bitchoffen (?) - not sure i have to look it up
- I have found the marriage record. I will have it available for you later.

- I could not find their death record in this town between 1851 and 1872. In the next registry book (1873-1882), the pages including the letter L are missing.

Romain

[Moorea]

Found in the archives of Bas-Rhin for the town of Pfaffenhofen:
- Confirmation of Marie's birth date: here is the RECORD

- the first link is not working. Here is the record for Marie's birth certificate: RECORD
- I will get you the rest of the info later (gotta go to the hair dresser!!)

[Moorea]

ok, so the marriage record of Marie's parents: RECORD

Date of the marriage : 25 October 1847.
Hyppolithe Aloïse Lauck,
School teacher
Lives in Pfaffenhofen
born on 19 June 1822 in Strasbourg.
Son of George, 67 years old, previously a coachman, and Marie Barbe Baumann, 58 y-o. they live in Strasbourg.

Marie, Elisabeth Loison
Lives in la Wack, a hamlet of the town of Bitschhoffen
Born in la Wack, Bitschhoffen on 26 December 1823
Daughter of Xavier François Loison, 65 y-o, property owner living in la Wack, and of the late Marie Elisabeth Sontag (?), deceased in la Wack on 31 may 1831 (she was 37 y-o then).

Witnesses:
Jean George, Lauck, 36 yo, Tailor, Hyppolite's brother
+ 3 witnesses all friends of the couple.

[Moorea]

Hi Frazzled,

i went through the indexes of all 20 arrondissement for the year 1883-1892 and did not find Gratien's death record. He did not pass away in Paris.
I also checked Neuilly for the same period, negative.
Could not find any birth eather.

Maybe he died in London or on the way... Now I am afraid it is almost impossible to find him unless we find him in some database later on.

With regards to Marie Elisabeth Loison (or Loyson), I found the entire family in the 1846 census: screenshot
Hard to read:
father is Aaron (? looks like there is an "i" at the end of the nalme) and mother is Odile Rumpler, age 48.
In the household we can find:
Madeleine, widow Steinhamfel (?), age 27, probably daughter of the above and sister of Marie, Elisabeth.
Alexandre, 7 months, son of Madeleine
Elisabeth, age 23 (that's our Elisabeth)
Marie, age 4
on the next page there is also Julie, 16 years old.

Thanks to this census we know it was a Catholic family in a town with a large proportion of protestants and jews.

Romain

[Moorea]

father is Aaron (? looks like there is an "i" at the end of the nalme)

the father is "Xavier", I wrote it earlier, duh!
Odile is the second wife of Xavier as Elisabeth's mom, Marie Sontag, died in 1831.