Offering free assistance on French Genealogy

[Moorea]

That is good info indeed!
I am really surprised I could not find George's death record in Paris... I will have a look again;
I have to say that your family must have been quite wealthy as this is a very nice and expensive area to live in!
I had a look again at Georges' death record in case I missed it... he did not die in Paris in 1893-1902.

Romain

[Richard in Perth]

I don't think that George could have been all that wealthy, as he was a tin-plate worker, and later a factory foreman - so as an artisan he may have been middle-class but probably not rich. However, maybe Jeanne Clarisse's husband Arthur Azema was more wealthy as he was a merchant, and it was he who lived in Paris originally (according to the details on his marriage record). Maybe it was him who owned the gravesite in Passy? It seems that the import business that Jules & Arthur had in New York must have been quite profitable, as Jules & his wife travelled "First Class" across the Atlantic at least once a year, to visit their relatives in England and France and no doubt also in connection with the business. Jules also registered several patents for various bottle designs, but I don't know if he made much money from these!

Unfortunately there are no living descendants from this branch of the family. The eldest son George Henry had only one child - a daughter who did not marry and died in an asylum in Essex, UK in 1951. Jules and Jane did not have any children, and nor did Auguste, who died as a child. Arthur & Jeanne Clarisse had one child, Georges Azema - however he was killed at Verdun in 1915 at the age of 21. Therefore, Jeanne Clarisse would have been the last surviving member of this branch of the family when she died in 1955. I've no idea what happened to the money, if indeed there was any left by then. It certainly didn't come into our side of the family, that's for sure!

[Richard in Perth]

Just a thought - were there any military records for Georges Azema, 1894-1915?

[Moorea]

hi Richard,

absolutely!
Until 1995, all men aged 20 (and then 18) had to serve 10 to 18 months in the French Army.
He will have his "fiche matricule" (military record). It recaps all his path in the army, regiments reallocation, injuries, honours, court sentences, various addresses until the age of 30, physical description, level of education, parents' address etc.

We can assume that George was still living in Paris in 1914 (1894+20). So we have to look at the records for this year in this city. Unfortunately, Alphabetical tables are only online until 1902 (in order to get his record number) and actual records are not online for the city of Paris. We'll have to ask someone to help. I know someone who might be able to assist...

As Georges died in Verdun, he has a "Mort pour la France" record. This translates to "Dead for France". This means his family will have the right to have some money/ a pension as a recognition of the sacrifice made. This "Mention marginale" is an official status for defunct people that opens some rights to the family.
Anyway, here is his record:

http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/ark:/40699/m005239d6c3d8403/5242bbf373b15

We learn he was in the 87th Infantry Regiment. He died in April 1915 in the temporary hospital nbr 4 in Verdun.
You learn he was born on 1st March 1894 in Paris (8th arrondissement). Also, a transcription on the 16th arrondissement's civil records book.
The diary of the 87th regiment for the entire length of the war is also available online:
From to August 1914 to November 1914: HERE
From November 1914 to May 1915: HERE

I will lookf for more info for you later on

Take care

Romain

[Moorea]

Hi Richard,

In the diary, by reading about the activities of the regiment between 12 and 16 April 1915, it is impossible to know when he was wounded as I counted 106 of them!
It could have been before the 12 April too.
It looks like this regiment was heavily targeted by the German's artillery.

On the website Mémoire des Hommes, we learn where he is burried:
Georges Jules AZEMA

Mort pour la France le 16-04-1915

Carrière
Unité: 87e régiment d'infanterie (87e RI)

Mention Mort pour la France
Sépulture
Lieu de sépulture: VERDUN (55 - Meuse, France)
Nom du site de sépulture: Nécropole Nationale 'FAUBOURG PAVE'
Type de sépulture: tombe individuelle
Carré de la tombe14/18
Numéro de la tombe: 2223

I forgot to mention, for his Fiche Matricule, his record is :
Registration Office: Paris 2e bureau
Classe 1914
Record nbr 2271

With regards to the birth record here it is:

http://canadp-archivesenligne.paris.fr/archives_etat_civil/1860_1902_actes/aec_visu_img.php?registre=V4E_08697&type=AEC&&bdd_en_cours=actes_ec_1893_1902&vue_tranche_debut=AD075EC_V4E_08697_0071&vue_tranche_fin=AD075EC_V4E_08697_0071&ref_histo=3268&cote=V4E%208697

I will see if I can find more information

Kind regards

Romain

[Moorea]

here is some more info on the regiment during WW1:

http://www.chtimiste.com/regiments/ligne51-100.htm#_80%C3%A8me_R%C3%A9giment_d%27Infanterie

Some pictures:

http://www.chtimiste.com/album/Active/1er%20au%2099e%20RI/87e%20RI/index.html

The cemetary:

[Moorea]

dear Margaret,

I could not find Frederic anywhere in Lyon...
I also looked into the military records as all men had to register when turning 20 y-o. Although the registration is done in Lyon, it includes also all the men from the département (county). this usually helps when, people are from "around" a particular city.

In our case, no trace of any "Ley" from 1873-1876 in the military records. However, he could have been born somewhere around Lyon and at the age of 20 he could have been living outside of the Lyon county. This could explain why I cannot find him in the military records either.

Do you know when and where he died?

Kind regards

Romain

[margaretmarch]

dear Margaret,

I could not find Frederic anywhere in Lyon...
I also looked into the military records as all men had to register when turning 20 y-o. Although the registration is done in Lyon, it includes also all the men from the département (county). this usually helps when, people are from "around" a particular city.

In our case, no trace of any "Ley" from 1873-1876 in the military records. However, he could have been born somewhere around Lyon and at the age of 20 he could have been living outside of the Lyon county. This could explain why I cannot find him in the military records either.

Do you know when and where he died?

Kind regards

Romain

Thank you so much for looking.

I have no further information on Frederic Ley senior - he is only named on the marriage cert. I am assuming from the fact that he is shown as a pensioner that he was perhaps in the military.

It's frustrating that there are no passenger lists for travel between the continent and the UK, otherwise we might have been able to get a little more information on Frederick Maurice and an idea of when and where he arrived in the UK.

I expect this will remain a mystery for the time being.
Margaret

[Moorea]

Dear Margaret,

"Pensioner", that is a good info actually!
I will have a look at the list of "military pensioners"!

Also, there are list of passengers between France and the UK I believe (only departure from Le Havre) on a French website. I remember I looked into them a while back.

Romain

[margaretmarch]

Thanks again. I wasn't aware of a passenger list from France to UK so that might be helpful for Frederick Maurice's entry to England.
Margaret

[Moorea]

Dear Margaret,

I was wrong the list of passengers are to NYC and many are via Southampton but that's it.
I looked into the official list of military pensioners and he does not appear between 1876 and 1914.

Researches on him directly did not get us anywhere... Let's go around him...
any info on the children that might be giving us a hint? Who are the children and when and where did they marry?
Also, did he have any brothers and sisters? did they get married? Maybe he was a witness/ best man.

Finally, I assume you have no info on his parents...?

Please advise

Romain

[Moorea]

Dear Margaret,

I also checked in the lists of French military officers 1846-1914 and still nothing.
just a stupid question... was he French? Do you know what brought him to England?

Romain

[Moorea]

I checked in all the databases I have access to and although I did not find our man, I noticed that most results I got are located in Moselle county (Lorraine region in eastern France). When Frederic turned approx. 15 in 1870-71, Prussia took possesion of most of the region. He was too young to serve and fight against the invader but that was definitely a reason to flee with his family. After the defeat of France in 1871, many families decided to immigrate overseas as they did not feel German/Prussian and France was in a complete mess economicaly and politicaly. Many people from Alsace left to North Africa while people from Lorraine moved to the UK (as AT LAST it was an ally rather than an enemy!).
Lyons could have been just a place where he temporary lived in.

That is just a thought.

[Moorea]

Margaret, you did write you had no further info on Frederic, do you know his mother's last name at least?

[Moorea]

I also had a look at weddings in Lyons between 1823-1862 in case I could find a trace of the father "Frederic". Very few "LEY" (I counted 4 marriages during the whole period). None matching.

I am still thinking Lyons was a temporary address...

[margaretmarch]

Romain,
Thanks so much for all your efforts.

All I know is that Frederick Maurice Ley born about 1855 was in the UK in the Manchester area in 1876 when he married Sarah Ann Breese and at that time he gave his father as Frederic deceased pensioner - nothing else is known. UK marriage certificates do not require the mother's name to be given - we have to get birth certificates to find that out and that is where the problem lies.

I think Frederic senior would have been born about 1835 on the basis he was around 20 when his son was born - he could have died any time after 1855 and up to 1876 or thereabouts. I suppose it's also possible that Frederick Maurice was illegitimate and made up a father's name so as to appear respectable to his new wife!

He may also have said he was born in France as it may not have been acceptable to say a region near Germany or taken over by Germany/Prussia.

Frederick Maurice had 5 children named Minnie, Edwin, Clement, Thomas Frederick and Ethel between 1878 and 1894. His occupation was listed as Draughtsman in 1876, Wine & Spirit Cellarman in 1881 and Cellarman in 1891 - he died in 1898.

If he had trained as a Draughtsman it would no doubt have been in France - would there be any records for that at all? It also strikes me that he would have come from an educated background to be doing such work - that's providing the occupation is the same as we have here in the UK i.e some who draws plans for architects/engineers or whatever.

I do appreciate your help on this.

Margaret

[Richard in Perth]

Hi Romain

Many thanks for the info on Georges Azema. Sorry for the late reply - I have been unexpectedly without an internet connection for the pat few days!

Regards,
Richard

[Moorea]

I think Frederic senior would have been born about 1835 on the basis he was around 20 when his son was born

I will not be able to search tomorrow (today for you!) but the day after I will look into birth records in Lyons in the 1830's. The problem is that we do not know for sure the Frederic is also the name of the father.
I did find other LEY but none is called Frederic.
I will also check the death records of Lyon between 1850 and 1876 in case I find the father.
If nothing, then I think we are stuck until we know a place or a full name (including the mother).

Romain

[margaretmarch]

I will not be able to search tomorrow (today for you!) but the day after I will look into birth records in Lyons in the 1830's. The problem is that we do not know for sure the Frederic is also the name of the father.
I did find other LEY but none is called Frederic.
I will also check the death records of Lyon between 1850 and 1876 in case I find the father.
If nothing, then I think we are stuck until we know a place or a full name (including the mother).

Romain

As with a lot of family tree research we can only go on the information provided by the individual on the records we can find and Frederic Ley deceased pensioner was given as the father's name in 1876 but of course we don't know if this is true or accurate.

Margaret

[Giddysue]

Hi Romain,

I would be so grateful if you could find any details for Camille Jeanne Rozant de Mazilly who was born on 18.July.1889 somewhere in France!! Sorry for the very limited information.

I only know that Camille married William Rounsley (no available information on UK records) so I wonder whether the marriage took place in France. Camille gave birth to a daughter at Exeter, Devon, UK in 1919. Camille died at Exeter in 1983.

Any information would be much appreciated.

Kind regards
Sue