Searching for a woman!

[margaretmarch]

Here's the link for the 1911 for Reuben and Elizabeth Watson http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/23...l=ReturnRecord

They say married 20 years but that is probably not true as Mary Ann is shown as age 20 so they will have said that to cover her illegitimacy. There are also 2 children with the Ibbotson surname - Priscilla the eldest is age 18 so that's a clue!
Margaret

[margaretmarch]

Here's Elizabeth and Reuben in 1901 http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=2352

All the children are shown as surname Watson.

Margaret

[margaretmarch]

Here's Reuben in 1891 as a lodger but shown as married and under his name is an Emma Watson also married http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/65...l=ReturnRecord

Margaret

[margaretmarch]

Here's a marriage for Reuben to Emma Payne

Reuben Watson
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1887
Registration district: Mansfield
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume Number: 7b
Page Number: 134

[margaretmarch]

Here's Priscilla Ibbotson's birth
Priscilla Ibbotson
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1892
Registration district: Sheffield
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9c
Page: 544

Would be worth getting her birth cert to see who her parents were.

Margaret

[Thetallone]

Yes, I've come across this entry before, In the 1911 census and I think you are right with the 20 year marriage claim. I can supply some background information. Elizabeth A was called Brotherhood, then Ibbotson and then Watson. I think the order of names is correct.
My 89 year old mother remembers her grandmother. She was it seems, a particularly attractive woman and one for the gentlemen. Elizabeth A's son in law, my mums dad described her as "too good looking for her own good"

Against this backdrop, it seems hardly surprising that she was known by different names, lived with or married 2 or 3 different men and had children by at least 2 different men. Quite a gal my great grandmother :-) So much for Victorian morality values!

[Thetallone]

Here's the link for the 1911 for Reuben and Elizabeth Watson http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/23...l=ReturnRecord

They say married 20 years but that is probably not true as Mary Ann is shown as age 20 so they will have said that to cover her illegitimacy. There are also 2 children with the Ibbotson surname - Priscilla the eldest is age 18 so that's a clue!
Margaret

If you look carefully at the children's names it says Marh B, priscilla I and George I before the ditto marks for Watson . TheB is brotherhood, and the I is Ibbotson. Perhaps theyhaddoublebarreled surnames in 1901?

[Thetallone]

Here's a marriage for Reuben to Emma Payne

Reuben Watson
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1887
Registration district: Mansfield
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume Number: 7b
Page Number: 134

I will
Have a look at this. It would see that Reuben Watson was married twice.

[Thetallone]

Here's Priscilla Ibbotson's birth
Priscilla Ibbotson
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1892
Registration district: Sheffield
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9c
Page: 544

Would be worth getting her birth cert to see who her parents were.

Margaret

I haven't come across this before and yes, I will obtain a copy of this certificate. Brilliant! Thanks!

[Thetallone]

Here's another Sneinton connection, supplied by a Sheffield History Forum member. Source unknown at present.

In Febuary 1885 Elizabeth Brotherhood was found guilty of stealing lace and fined 20s or 14 days hard labour. The lace belonged to Messrs. Thos Adams and Co of Stoney Street, Nottingham. One of the witnesses was Maria Porter who lived at Sneinton Elements and regularly used to give Elizabeth work.

Is this my Elizabeth??

[margaretmarch]

Here's another Sneinton connection, supplied by a Sheffield History Forum member. Source unknown at present.

In Febuary 1885 Elizabeth Brotherhood was found guilty of stealing lace and fined 20s or 14 days hard labour. The lace belonged to Messrs. Thos Adams and Co of Stoney Street, Nottingham. One of the witnesses was Maria Porter who lived at Sneinton Elements and regularly used to give Elizabeth work.

Is this my Elizabeth??

I saw that on Find My Past but there is insufficient information to say whether or not it is your Elizabeth.

I suspect Reuben and Elizabeth never married as there is no other marriage coming up for him.

Likewise the Ibbotson relationship but at least if you get Priscilla's birth cert you will find out who Mr Ibbotson was! maybe also be able to find whether he died and hence Reuben on the scene or if not what happened to him. These Ibbotson children are of course half blood to you and therefore their father should be on your tree.

I wonder what happened to Reuben's first wife? will see what I can find, perhaps she didn't die hence why he and Elizabeth didn't marry.

Margaret

[Thetallone]

I saw that on Find My Past but there is insufficient information to say whether or not it is your Elizabeth.

I suspect Reuben and Elizabeth never married as there is no other marriage coming up for him.

Likewise the Ibbotson relationship but at least if you get Priscilla's birth cert you will find out who Mr Ibbotson was! maybe also be able to find whether he died and hence Reuben on the scene or if not what happened to him. These Ibbotson children are of course half blood to you and therefore their father should be on your tree.

I wonder what happened to Reuben's first wife? will see what I can find, perhaps she didn't die hence why he and Elizabeth didn't marry.

Margaret

I have sent for a copy of Priscilla's birth certificate. It should be here in a week anf I will post the results when I have it.

George Ibbotson was my mum's uncle( half uncle) him being Mary Elizabeth's half brother. My mum also remembers a Jack Ibbotson, George's son and my mum's half cousin.

With regard to Elizabeth and Reuben's marriage. I'll have a look for a record of entry but I suspect they did not get married from what you have said. If they moved from the Notts area to Sheffield, nobody would know that they were not married, especially if Elizabeth wore some kind of ring and they claimed to be married. Certainly the enumerator would not know this. Perhaps they could not afford to get married?

Reuben's first wife must have died but not perhaps in Reuben's lifetime.

Kevin

[Night Owl]

Just throwing this into the mix - may be connected

Q/E Sept 1899 Mansfield marriages

Hawkins Emily Sarah
Leeson William
Watson Reuben
Wilkinson Elizabeth Ann B

I'm pretty sure William Leeson married Emily Hawkins (likely couple showing in the 1901 census)

Could the initial B in Elizabeth Wilkinson's name stand for Brotherhood?

[Chrissie Smiff]

There is a marriage in Dec 1891 ref 9c 735 Sheffield of a Harry Ibbotson and on the same page is an Elizabeth Ann Brotherwood - (also on the page Earnest Goldthorpe and Elizabeth Staniforth).

[Thetallone]

Just throwing this into the mix - may be connected

Q/E Sept 1899 Mansfield marriages

Hawkins Emily Sarah
Leeson William
Watson Reuben
Wilkinson Elizabeth Ann B

I'm pretty sure William Leeson married Emily Hawkins (likely couple showing in the 1901 census)

Could the initial B in Elizabeth Wilkinson's name stand for Brotherhood?

You could well be right! Elizabeth Ann Brotherhood had a complicated past! The fact that Reuben Watson whom Elizabeth claims to have been married to for 20 years in the 1911 census is mentioned adds weight but who are Sarah Hawkins and Leeson William? Witnesses?

Kevin

[margaretmarch]

Here's Reuben in 1881 http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/75...l=ReturnRecord

His mother was previously Watson and married William Crowder.

Sarah Watson
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1862
Registration district: Mansfield
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume Number: 7b
Page Number: 116

Margaret

[Thetallone]

There is a marriage in Dec 1891 ref 9c 735 Sheffield of a Harry Ibbotson and on the same page is an Elizabeth Ann Brotherwood - (also on the page Earnest Goldthorpe and Elizabeth Staniforth).

I'll check this one out. Brotherwood is occasionally down as her name and I am told that Brotherhood is an ancestral derivation of Brotherwood.

Kevin

[Night Owl]

You could well be right! Elizabeth Ann Brotherhood had a complicated past! The fact that Reuben Watson whom Elizabeth claims to have been married to for 20 years in the 1911 census is mentioned adds weight but who are Sarah Hawkins and Leeson William? Witnesses?

Kevin

Sorry I should have explained. On FreeBMD there will often be several names of people who married in that district and in the same quarter. In this case there were 4 names. Its then a case of working out who married who. I'd worked out that Sarah Hawkins married William Leeson so that meant that Reuben Watson married Elizabeth Wilkinson. The 2 couples are probably not connected

[Thetallone]

Here's Reuben in 1881 http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/75...l=ReturnRecord

His mother was previously Watson and married William Crowder.

Sarah Watson
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1862
Registration district: Mansfield
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume Number: 7b
Page Number: 116

Margaret

Yes. It seems Sarah Crowder was previously Sarah Watson and had 2 children by Mr Watson before marrying? William Crowder and having 3 more children. I wonder what happened to her first husband, Mr.Watson?

[Darksecretz]

In December 1890 she was in Mansfield Union Workhouse Infirmary where on 28th Decenber1890 she gave birth to my grandmother, Mary Elizabeth Brotherhood. On the 19th January 1891 she left the workhouse with her new baby. it would seem likely that she entered the Infirmary to have her daughter.

In the 1891 census, she and her baby were boarders with Henry and Elizabeth Derrick at 63 Newcastle Street, Hucknall under Huthwaite (now just Hucknall) Sutton in Ashfield. Her birthplace is down as Sutton in Ashfield(may or may not be correct). Thomas Harrison was also a boarder.

Hi,

I don't want to nit pick, but Hucknall under Huthwaite is not the same place as 'Hucknall' this is very confusing I realise for those that do not know the area

'Hucknall under Huthwaite' is now known as simply 'Huthwaite' which is not very far from Sutton in Ashfield.

Hucknall, which was once called 'Hucknall Torkard' is near to Kirkby in Ashfield.

there is another Hucknall - 'Ault Hucknall' this is very near to Hardwick Hall in Derbyshire/Bolsover district.

I know it is confusing, but not so when you do know the area.. [I also know that Ancestry also have some of Hucknall and Hucknall under Huthwaite census images muddled up!..

I'll have a proper read through this thread and then see if I can assist any further.

welcome to the forum :smilee: