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Thread: Give help for French records

  1. #21
    Pascal, is it possible to trace a frenchmans's military records (mariner) for late 1700 - 1840?

    White Mist

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by White Mist View Post
    Pascal, is it possible to trace a frenchmans's military records (mariner) for late 1700 - 1840?

    White Mist
    Yes it is possible, but you need some basic information first. All men must go to "conseil de révision" in the town where they live when they are 20-year old. Birth year + 20 = "classe". First of all, you must know that place. Even with that information, those records are not yet online for the time you speak about. On those records, you got physical description, instruction level, and military corps.

    If your ancestor was a soldier (I guess it is the same for mariners), you probably won't get anything more, unless he was wounded, so maybe he has a file in military archives (not online either for that time). If he was an officer, he surely has a file in military archives.

    When you tell me more information, I will try to give you more precise answer.

    Pascal

  3. #23

    French Military (Marine) records

    Quote Originally Posted by PascalMallet View Post
    Yes it is possible, but you need some basic information first. All men must go to "conseil de révision" in the town where they live when they are 20-year old. Birth year + 20 = "classe". First of all, you must know that place. Even with that information, those records are not yet online for the time you speak about. On those records, you got physical description, instruction level, and military corps.

    If your ancestor was a soldier (I guess it is the same for mariners), you probably won't get anything more, unless he was wounded, so maybe he has a file in military archives (not online either for that time). If he was an officer, he surely has a file in military archives.

    When you tell me more information, I will try to give you more precise answer.

    Pascal
    Bonjour et ca va?

    Thank you for your reply Pascal. I am guessing that “conseil de revision” is a version of “service militaire”, or national service in the UK? Are these records subject to the 100 year rule?

    Here is the explanationa and information that I have to date. I hope that you can follow it -


    The man that I believe to be my 3rd grandpere arriere, born Louis Francois Hermitte of Toulon, Var France, 4th October 1763 was a Maitre de Manoeuvres on the French naval ship Formidable which was captured at the Battle of Trafalgar 1805 and taken back to Gosport/Portsmouth in England. The crew list of the Formidable (held at The National Archives UK) establishes that he has a French wife - Madelaine Marchand. Louis Francois Hermitte, is documented in LDS records as is his family, his marriage to Madelaine Marchand and their children all living in Toulon. Also documented in Geneanet.

    I have not found any records of him being wounded but that does not mean that he wasn't.


    I am unsure if Maitre de Manoeuvres would have been considered to be officers in the French navy at that time. I believe that he was a career mariner because his duties aboard ship required a lot of experience and skill gained over a long period of time.


    A man called Lewis Francis (the anglicised version of the above name) Hermitte married Susannah Lewis in Portsea (Portsmouth) in 1795 and their child Ann Susannah Hermitte was baptized in Gosport in 1797. There is no UK further documentation that refers to Lewis Francis Hermitte - in fact it looks as if Louis Francois Hermitte went back to Toulon, (maybe as part of a prisoner exchange scheme) and continued to have more children with Madeleine Marchand.
    Ann Susannah Hermitte moved to London, married and had a quite a few direct descendant males that have Lewis, Louis, Louis Francois as their christian names.


    So, I would like to find this man’s French military record to establish why he was in Portsmouth/Gosport in 1795 – 10 years before the Battle of Trafalgar? Maybe, he was a prisoner of war at that time too? Maybe records still exists of prisoner exchanges that took place during these times?


    I would need to find out where these records are kept and if they are available for the general public to see - in Toulon or elsewhere, then I can plan a visit to the bibliotheque.

    Hopefully, you can point me in the right direction

    White Mist

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by White Mist View Post
    Bonjour et ca va?
    Thank you for your reply Pascal. I am guessing that “conseil de revision” is a version of “service militaire”, or national service in the UK? Are these records subject to the 100 year rule?
    Bonjour,

    "Conseil de révision" is to check if men can go to army or not. For your ancestor, that was in 1783. No problem as it is older than 100 years. I guess you already connected to Archives Départementales (AD) in Toulon to get his personnal records such as BMD, census, etc. ("conseil de révision" won't be online, but their website is very complete). I will tell you some information if needed. http://www.archives.var.fr/article.php?larub=97 Military series is under letter R.

    A "maître de manœuvre" (or "bosco", English "bosun") is not an officer.

    So, I would like to find this man’s French military record to establish why he was in Portsmouth/Gosport in 1795 – 10 years before the Battle of Trafalgar? Maybe, he was a prisoner of war at that time too? Maybe records still exists of prisoner exchanges that took place during these times?

    I would need to find out where these records are kept and if they are available for the general public to see - in Toulon or elsewhere, then I can plan a visit to the bibliotheque.
    Most military records are kept in Service Historique de la Défense (SHD), in Vincennes, close to Paris. Here is their website: http://www.servicehistorique.sga.def...Vincennes.html It seems to be down currently, I will try later to connect and let you know.

    You also can connect on Archives Nationales (AN) website: http://www.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/ Military series are kept under letter F.

    Of course, you may go to AD in Toulon. Records are easy to access there but you probably won't find prisoners lists and so on.

    I hope this helps.

    Pascal

  5. #25
    Merci bien Pascal - vous etes gentil.

    Je pense que I am trying metre la charrue avant les boeufs!

    So, I need to take one step at a time and research the personal records first, the French BMD, census etc, about this man then find the military information afterwards – n’est pas?

    Most of the French information that I have about him has been gained from online sites - Family Search (Latter Day Saints), Geneanet and The National Archives UK. So I have not connected with the AD in Toulon yet.

    So, I will try to navigate the link that you gave and see what I can do.

    White Mist

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by White Mist View Post
    Merci bien Pascal - vous etes gentil.

    Je pense que I am trying metre la charrue avant les boeufs!

    So, I need to take one step at a time and research the personal records first, the French BMD, census etc, about this man then find the military information afterwards – n’est pas?

    Most of the French information that I have about him has been gained from online sites - Family Search (Latter Day Saints), Geneanet and The National Archives UK. So I have not connected with the AD in Toulon yet.

    So, I will try to navigate the link that you gave and see what I can do.

    White Mist
    Yes, the best is to get easy records first, and Toulon AD website is very good. Few hints:
    - Remember that things are different before and after French Revolution. Big changes took place by 1790-1792.
    - Before B-M-D records were called B (baptême)-M-S (sépulture), and after N (naissance)-M-D (Décès).
    - From 1792, you can look at Tables Décennales (TD) where names are sorted by first letter (sometimes by full name, but you must be cautious). Then you got the record date to search in Etat Civil or Etats Paroissiaux. Sometimes, you also find lists at the end of each year in records files.
    - Some months are sometimes abreviated: 7bre means September (not July!), 8bre means October, 9bre ..., and 10bre or Xbre means December.
    - If year is between 1 and 14 (XIV), it is Revolutionary calendar (1792-1806): search for explanations on Internet.
    - "Recensements" are censuses.
    - "Registres matricules" are personal military data but they always start in 1867.
    - "Contrôle des actes" (fees) can help you to find a marriage, contract of any kind, will, inventory after death. They are sorted by first letter then by date. Records are not online.

    Good luck! (If you can't read records, I can transcript/translate for you)

  7. #27

    Hi, looking for French Relative

    Quote Originally Posted by PascalMallet View Post
    Bonjour à tous! I am French and some of my ancestors came from England as lacemakers to produce tulle and lace in Calais. I just posted a new thread asking for some help for English records, but as I am quite comfortable with French records of any kind, I can also give information about how to handle tools for researches in France, especially on French websites.
    Hi PascalMallet,

    I am writing from England. I have traced and found lots of interesting information on my 4 X Great Grandfather who was born in France

    http://www.doversociety.org/LouisPique.html

    I do not know where he was born and I know that with French genealogy that is a big problem. I am therefore now looking for help to try and find out where he was born. In his obituary it says he was a 'veteran of the Empire' for Napolean. He also claimed that his Grandfather was Francois Louis Pique the famous violin maker from Mirecourt who then worked in Paris for the rest of his life. I have found lots of information on him, but the dates are very tight and I can't trace his family tree to see if there is a link back to my Louis Pique. He also gives his father as Joseph Pique an army captain, again I can't find him. In the sketches of Louis Pique his clothes look quite American and I wonder if he went to America first as he was 30 when he came to England.

    I come from Kent, England and don't know if my area is helpful in your own search.

    Kind regards.

  8. #28
    Hi,

    I found on Internet that François Louis PIQUE died Oct. 27th 1822 in Saint-Maurice, near Paris, and I already got his obituary (I can send it to you by email). I think it is not too difficult to find his baptism record in Mirecourt, and maybe his marriage record. Do you know how to search in French "Archives départementales" websites?

    Something is little strange to me: I read that Louis PIQUE married Ann Bartlett in 1817 and you told me that he was about 30 when he came to England, so probably born around 1787. I also read that his grand-father was born in 1757, so his father was probably not born before 1776 and there is no "room" for another generation. Have you an explanation?

    About old Paris records, they have been destroyed in 1871 and only a third remains. If father and son were in the Army, they maybe have a file in Service Historique de la Défense (SHD) in Vincennes, near Paris, but very few information is online.

    About his coming to England, or maybe America, have you checked on passengers lists?

    My English ancestors came from Leicestershire, but I spent two weeks in Kent as a cousin of mine was French teacher in Rye. It was in... 1966 and we went to Hastings to see the 9th century battle celebration.

    Kind regards.
    Pascal

  9. #29
    Hi, Pascal,

    thank you for getting back to me, your reply has only just popped up on my screen so I have only just seen it. I agree the dates for Francois Louis Pique to be Louis Pique's Grandfather are very tight, but on another certificate I have just found it gives his Birth date as 1783 and that he died in 1854 aged 71, so that gives another 4 years, but still very tight. On his marriage certificate, he remarried in 1851 he gives his father as Joseph Pique an army captain, I did wonder if he might have been Spanish as there are a few Joseph Pique's who are Spanish born about 1755, which would be a more realistic date for his father to have been born. I tried to check the (SHD) at Vincennes on line and I did a general search for Louis Pique and Pique on the French National Archives but got zero matches on both. I couldn't find anything on the passenger lists either.
    Did you manage to open my link to the website about him? I did come across a Louis Pique who died at Villemobile in 1854 a couple of months before his burial date in England. He did work as a tout for the cross-ferry passengers and in the passengers records I did access there were a couple of entries in the 1850's for a Mr Pique who was given as a 'courier' so I did wonder if that could have been him ans that he died in France and was brought back to England. A bit of a wild and romantic notion, but not entirely impossible. Maybe I should check this other Louis Pique and see if they are the same person.
    I know I have a lot of information already maybe even more than most people would for a relative in the early 1800's before photography, but it just makes him more tantalising. I wonder if he was doing equally interesting things before he came to Dover.
    King regards,

    Lisa

  10. #30
    Hi again Pascal,

    I did not realise that you had replied as it did not come up in my notifications box, I only found it when I clicked on your name to see what you had written in the forums and there was your reply to me, so I am not sure where to look now if you reply again and please don't think I'm ignoring you if I don't get back to you straight away because of this. You asked if I know how to search in the Departmental Archives (sorry I can only write the English equivalent because I can not find out how to put the accents on to write in French.) I am a bit of a computer dinosaur. I just tend to put Pique or Louis Pique in search boxes but that may not be the right way to do it. It usually comes up with zero matches. I live very near to Sandwich, where there was a large Hugenot population and Dutch as well, they were all in the cloth industry, and weaving. In Canterbury we also have the Institute of Heraldry and Genealogy that may be able to help you. http://www.ihgs.ac.uk/ I may well go back to the Primary resources of the day, such as Cobbett's 'Rural Rides' and see if I can glean any more information from there. Accounts written by travellers to England through the Port of Dover might mention him as he was obviously a town character. I too have been to France and fell in love with Perigeux. I felt very at home, I suppose that may be my French heritage kicking in.
    Kind regards,

    Lisa Carter nee(Holness)

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