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  • #41
    I haven’t been able to follow the link you provided to see what advice you have already been given.

    1. What’s Margaret’s father’s name?
    2. What’s her townland (address) at the time of the marriage?
    3. Which church did she marry at, including the denomination?
    4. Have you found her in the 1901 census (I see 3 possibles but without her father’s name can’t narrow the search further).



    The question about why they went to Glasgow is probably easy enough to answer. They will have gone there for work. Huge numbers of people from Donegal made that journey for that reason (and still do to this day). Donegal and the surrounding area has no natural resources, such as coal, oil, iron ore etc, and so the industrial revolution that created hundreds of thousands of new jobs in other places in the 1800s and early 1900s just passed it by. There was little employment but for subsistence farming. Scotland was full of coal etc and so spawned a huge industrial expansion eg ship building, railways etc, and all the support industries that were required for that. If you look at a typical census for the industrial areas around Glasgow in 1901 or 1911 you’ll find that probably 10% of the population were from Ireland. They had all moved for that same reason. (It’s a very easy journey from Donegal. At that time there was a regular Burns, Laird lines ferry overnight from Derry to Broomielaw Quay, in Glasgow).
    Last edited by Elwyn; 12-10-13, 08:51.
    Elwyn

    I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

    Comment


    • #42
      Thank you Elwyn.
      The information I could from Roots Ireland find is:
      Civil Marriage Record
      Date of Marriage: 12/May/1908
      Parish/District: LETTERKENNY
      County: Co Donegal
      Husband: Name: Robert Moore
      H: Address: Corncammon Tauboyne
      H: Denomination: Civil Record
      H: Occupation: LABOURER
      H: Age: 28
      H: Status: Bachelor
      H: Father: Alexander Moore
      H: Father Occ: Labourer
      WIFE: Name: Margaret A Wray
      W: Address: Crieve Tauboyne
      W: Denomination: Civil Record
      W: Age: 22
      W: Status: Spinster
      W: Father: Joseph Wray
      W: Father Occ: Army Pensioner
      Witness 1: John Moore
      Witness 2: Mary Wray
      When I tried looking to 1910 in Ireland I couldn't see a census for that year which puzzled me.
      Yours Mrs Wendy Landale nee Guldberg

      Comment


      • #43
        Here’s Margaret Wray with her parents in the 1901 census:




        Tullyannan Glebe is on some minor roads about a mile south of Newtown Cunningham.

        There was no census in 1910, but 1911.

        This may be Margaret's sister Emily in 1911:



        Possibly John b c1899 with his elder brother in 1911:



        Joseph Wray senior evidently died between 1901 & 1911. Most likely death was registered in Londonderry on Jan – Mar 1909 Vol 2, page 132.Est year of birth 1839. (There was another death 1836 – Oct – Dec 1903 but I’d try the one with the closest age first.)

        Likely birth for your Margaret, is Margaret Anne Wray regd in Londonderry Oct – Dec 1887, Vol 3, page 177.


        You can order a photocopy from GRO Roscommon for €4 per certificate. Put the place, year, quarter (where there is one), volume & page number on the application form (anywhere). http://www.groireland.ie/ You have to post or fax the form to them but they will e-mail the copy certificate to you if you wish. Put “please e-mail to…..” clearly on the top of the form.

        This is probably Robert Moore in the 1901 census:



        (Rootsireland haven’t got the townland names quite right. There are often mistakes there. Transcription can be very difficult. Corncammon is Corncamble. )

        Agricultural labourers usually just rented for a year at a time and quite often would move home to follow new work. So you get them moving around the area a lot.

        If Joseph Wray was an army pensioner, you may get some military records for him on fmp, ancestry or from TNA in Kew.
        Last edited by Elwyn; 13-10-13, 14:41.
        Elwyn

        I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

        Comment


        • #44
          Doing a little more research, it looks as though Joseph Wray married Rebecca Kincaid. He’s in the records as Rae (a common alternative spelling of Wray). Rather unusually the marriage was registered twice. Letterkenny Jul – Sep 1882 Vol 2, page 129, and again Letterkenny Oct – Dec 1882 Vol 2, page 151. You would need to e-mail GRO Roscommon and ask them if they can explain that. (I can’t).
          Elwyn

          I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

          Comment


          • #45
            hello Elwyn

            Could i please, take you up on your offer please!?
            I am Looking for the parents to William Ireland Born abt 1836, Belfast(his exact D.O.B, would aslo be appreciated) died in 1883,Belfast......i have info that his father was William also, but have no information,on his mother!?

            Thank you very much

            Gina Marshall(nee Ireland)

            Comment


            • #46
              Gina,

              Statutory registration of births in Ireland didn’t start till 1864 so you won’t find a birth certificate for William. Your only hope is that you might find his baptism (which may or may not record his date of birth. Not all church records have that information).

              Ulster Historical Association has a William Ireland born 1832 to William Ireland in Cos Antrim or Down (which includes Belfast). You might want to check that out (pay to view).

              Discover your Irish and Scots-Irish Ancestry with Ulster Historical Foundation. The Foundation has online records and publications available to help you discover your Irish and Scots-Irish ancestors.


              Bear in mind that ages on marriage certs and deaths certs in the 1800s were often out by a few years, especially on death certs where the information is simply the informants best guess. So don’t rule out the 1832 event on the basis of age alone. Make sure that the denomination and any father's occupation and address reconcile with the information you have from the marriage certificate.

              Elwyn
              Elwyn

              I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Elwyn View Post

                You might want to check that out (pay to view).

                Discover your Irish and Scots-Irish Ancestry with Ulster Historical Foundation. The Foundation has online records and publications available to help you discover your Irish and Scots-Irish ancestors.




                Elwyn
                Hi Elwyn,
                Just on the off chance, I followed this link and found an 1862 County Down birth/baptism for a relative of mine. Am I right to assume this is a church record as it occurs before 1864 civil registration of births? Cheapskate that I am, before I shell out £4 to view it, could you tell me whether this is likely to be just a transcription or a copy of the original record?
                Thanks,
                Christine
                Last edited by Karamazov; 23-11-13, 19:51.
                Researching:
                HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

                Comment


                • #48
                  If it’s before 1.1.1864 then it has to be a church record. What you will get is a transcript, not the original. If you want to see the original then you either need to contact the church or view the microfilm copy that will probably be held in PRONI. (If you decide to buy it, let me know which church it was and I'll tell you whether PRONI has a copy of the original documentation.)
                  Elwyn

                  I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Thanks Elwyn,
                    I thought it was too much to hope that it would be the original. It should be a record from the Wesleyan Chapel in Downpatrick where her father was the Wesleyan Methodist minister at the time. Yes, I'd be grateful if you tell me whether PRONI has these records.
                    Regards,
                    Christine
                    Researching:
                    HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Christine,

                      According to the PRONI website, they only have copies of baptisms for that church from 1829 – 42 (on microfilm MIC429/1/407). Later years, and marriages from 1863, are still in local custody. So you would need to contact the Minister for an 1862 record, or alternatively, it’s possible that the Methodist Historical Society in Belfast may have a copy. (I know from speaking to the curator that they have been in the process of gathering copies of all baptism and marriage records from their circuits in Ireland). Contact details:


                      Last edited by Elwyn; 25-11-13, 06:55.
                      Elwyn

                      I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Elwin,
                        Belated thanks for this info and the link - very useful.
                        Christine
                        Researching:
                        HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Hello Elwyn
                          With reference to the information you have given another poster I’m hoping someone can shed light shed light on the Wray/Kincaid family-Ireland. My great grandparents were Joseph Wray b. abt. 1843 and Rebecca Kincaid b. abt. 1863 whom you mention, although a death certificate I applied for turned out not to be Joseph.. I’d found them in previous researching on the 1901 census but nothing on the couple after this although I have managed to gain quite a bit of information with regard to their children and in turn their families, although I’m always grateful for all information as I’m sure I’m missing lots especially as regards to their daughter Mary and daughter Fanny.

                          I have the marriage certificate of Joseph & Rebecca –they married on 11th July 1882 in Raymochy Parish Church, Donegal (Reg. District Letterkenny) At the 1911 census my grandpa William Rankin Wray (9) & his brother John (12) were in the care of their older brother Joseph Shelbourne Wray and his wife Martha Frances Wray and I take it from this, that as their other children were married or in service, that Joseph and Rebecca had either died or were perhaps in a poorhouse. I can’t find anything on them. Joseph’s father was Charles Wray (Ray) mother unknown.

                          I understand Rebecca was the daughter of a Shelbourne (various spellings and also seen as Shillone -incorrect) Kincaid (this name has been passed down to several Wray men, given as a middle or a Christian name) but although I have found a marriage between a Shelbourne Kincaid & Jane Moore which seems likely to be my relatives I can’t find a birth/death for Rebecca in any records.

                          I’m hoping someone has a wee bit of information (anything on Wray/Kincaid) that will give me the direction to follow. Although Joseph was an Infantry Army Pensioner I’m not having much success finding any information from military records.
                          Thank you
                          Fambuff3 (Maggie).

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Maggie,

                            Regarding whether Joseph and Rebecca were in the workhouse, you can have a look and see who was in Letterkenny workhouse in the 1911 census. Inmates were only under their initials, but by using sex, denomination, marital status and age you can narrow the search. There’s no female Church of Ireland RW there save for one who was single, so I think you can say Rebecca wasn’t there. There is a JW, who was married, Church of Ireland and a farmer. However his age is shown as 56 which is too young. (Though ages were not always that accurate on censuses). However because he was evidently an army pensioner, that would normally exclude him from the workhouse. He would have had an income (though perhaps not a great one) and normally that would mean he wasn’t destitute. He might have been in the hospital though that’s the only possibility, but in general I doubt they ended up in the workhouse. (If he were in the hospital, he would still appear in the workhouse admission records). 1911 census for Letterkenny workhouse:



                            You could try checking to see whether either is listed in the admission records. In some cases the admission records have survived (most of the Northern Ireland are intact) but there looks to be significant gaps in the Letterkenny records. However you may wish you contact Letterkenny museum to find out:



                            You could contact the Valuation Office in Dublin to establish when Joseph first took up the tenancy on the Tullyannon Glebe farm, and when he ceased to be the tenant. If he died, it sometimes says “reps of” against his name in the records, giving you a clue as to his death. Those records are not on-line and you would need to e-mail the Valuation Office. There may be a search fee to pay. You would need to check that with them.

                            You could also try the local Church of Ireland to see if they have Joseph & Rebecca’s burial records. (Church of Ireland is about the only denomination that does routinely keep burial records). Again, the vicar may charge a search fee. (€20 per hour).

                            I can’t see any military records for Joseph on the usual websites, but you might need to get a searcher in England to go to Kew to look there, as not all the relevant records are on-line.

                            Rebecca looks to have been born before the start of statutory birth registration (1864) so you won't get a birth certificate for her. You might get her baptism if you knew where she was baptised and the records have survived. I can't see a very likely death for her either. There's one in Stranorlar in 1916 aged 70 and another in Derry in 1917 aged 64, but neither seems likely to me, and she ought therefore to be in the 1911 census. Again the answer might be in the local COI burial records. Otherwise you might want to try the two deaths I have referred to but I wouldn't be very optimistic.
                            Elwyn

                            I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Hello Elwyn...Im a new member, attempting to find my Ireland ancestors... My great grandfather, we believe was from Killybegs Parsh, county donegal.. He arrived in the united states in 1866 according to one census. His name, Patrick Murrin. born June 22 1843 (however the year of birth varies from 1840, 1844, and 1843 on a work application we found here). He came from Ireland right to Rock Island, Illinois. We find several Murrin families here starting with the 1870 census. We feel that they must either be related or from the same area in ireland to heavily concentrate this area. This was a big Railroad starting spot by the Mississippi river. We also know he was infact a "railroad Man", in his early profession. We know from an obit when he passed in 1914 and this indicated he was survived by a "brother", no name, just brother, very frustrating. He married in 1867 the following year after he arrived to a Marria Ryan originally from Tipperary Ireland. I guess from this limited info maybe some type of baptism record might exist in a parish in that part of the country??? we have a very large portrait of him, looks to be in 30's, but for some reason i cant post it....

                              Karen Murrin

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Karen,

                                The variation in ages that you have encountered is pretty normal for that period. People didn’t celebrate their birthdays in Ireland and often had little accurate idea of how old they were.

                                Statutory birth registration in Ireland didn’t start till 1864 so you won’t find a birth certificate for Patrick. As you surmise, the next port of call is parish records. Unfortunately Killybegs RC records (I assume he was RC) don’t start till 1850 so there are no records for the 1840s or before. So you won’t find his baptism either.
                                The best you might hope for would be the baptisms of siblings born 1850 onwards.

                                You really need to know his parents names to distinguish his family from any other Murrins in the area. Is that information on his marriage or death certificate? I could also use that information to search for their deaths in Ireland, provided they died after 1864. An Irish death certificate should enable me to locate the family home.

                                If you want to look at them, the Killybegs RC parish records don’t appear to be on-line. There is however a copy in National Library in Dublin, and another in PRONI (the public record office in Belfast). LDS have also filmed them and you can order the film in to your local library.

                                I had a look at the 1901 Irish census, and there are 57 people named Murrin in the Killybegs area, totaling about 8 or 9 families. (Limit the search by putting Killybegs in the DED box).



                                Railroads didn’t arrive in Donegal till 1893, so if Patrick arrived in the US with railroad building skills, he probably acquired them elsewhere in Ireland, or even in England. Or he learned on the job in the US.

                                There are some Killybegs gravestone transcriptions and other information this site:

                                Elwyn

                                I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Thank you again Elwyn for the above information. As suspected Joseph & Rebecca weren't in the workhouse (thank goodness) so I am in the process of having burial records checked. I agree I don't think the deaths for Rebecca will be much help as they don't seem likely, so I'll leave those be for now. I have been in touch with the valuation office thank you for the information you suggest.

                                  Thanks again
                                  Maggie

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Elwyn View Post
                                    Karen,

                                    The variation in ages that you have encountered is pretty normal for that period. People didn’t celebrate their birthdays in Ireland and often had little accurate idea of how old they were.

                                    Statutory birth registration in Ireland didn’t start till 1864 so you won’t find a birth certificate for Patrick. As you surmise, the next port of call is parish records. Unfortunately Killybegs RC records (I assume he was RC) don’t start till 1850 so there are no records for the 1840s or before. So you won’t find his baptism either.
                                    The best you might hope for would be the baptisms of siblings born 1850 onwards.

                                    You really need to know his parents names to distinguish his family from any other Murrins in the area. Is that information on his marriage or death certificate? I could also use that information to search for their deaths in Ireland, provided they died after 1864. An Irish death certificate should enable me to locate the family home.

                                    If you want to look at them, the Killybegs RC parish records don’t appear to be on-line. There is however a copy in National Library in Dublin, and another in PRONI (the public record office in Belfast). LDS have also filmed them and you can order the film in to your local library.

                                    I had a look at the 1901 Irish census, and there are 57 people named Murrin in the Killybegs area, totaling about 8 or 9 families. (Limit the search by putting Killybegs in the DED box).



                                    Railroads didn’t arrive in Donegal till 1893, so if Patrick arrived in the US with railroad building skills, he probably acquired them elsewhere in Ireland, or even in England. Or he learned on the job in the US.

                                    There are some Killybegs gravestone transcriptions and other information this site:

                                    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.....com/~donegal/
                                    I will keep searching on my end, thank u......

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Elwyn View Post
                                      Anyone needing help with research in Northern Ireland is welcome to contact me for help.

                                      Elwyn Soutter
                                      Co Antrim
                                      Hi need help tracing the birth of william joseph omara D.O.B born 31 Mar 1924 Death registered Feb 1990 Reading and Wokingham. we believe was born in ireland but not sure what part,Any help with links to be able get a certificate, thanks .

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        I searched the Irish civil indexes, and the Northern Ireland birth records on the GRONI site, for Wm Joseph O’Mara born in 1924. There none listed. There are no Williams at all. There are 2 Josephs, one in Dublin Jan – Mar, and the other in Limerick April – Jun. Of the two it’s the more likely because a birth on 31st March is probably going to be registered in the first few days of April, rather than the very day of the birth.

                                        If you decide to order the Limerick one, the information you need is Limerick Apr – Jun 1924 Volume 5, page 288.

                                        You can order a photocopy of the certificate from GRO Roscommon for €4. http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply...tificates.aspx

                                        You have to download and print off the form. Then either post or fax it back to them. You can’t e-mail it to them. However if you want them to e-mail the cert to back to you, they will do that, so tick the relevant box.

                                        Put the reference details on the form (anywhere). Don’t worry about leaving some boxes blank. As long as GRO have the location, name(s), year, quarter (where there is one), volume and page number they should find it.

                                        However I would advise you to try and find Wm’s father’s name from, for example, his marriage certificate, to ensure that you have the right birth. Also do you have reliable documentary evidence of his date of birth eg his passport? Could the date be wrong?
                                        Elwyn

                                        I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Elwyn View Post
                                          I searched the Irish civil indexes, and the Northern Ireland birth records on the GRONI site, for Wm Joseph O’Mara born in 1924. There none listed. There are no Williams at all. There are 2 Josephs, one in Dublin Jan – Mar, and the other in Limerick April – Jun. Of the two it’s the more likely because a birth on 31st March is probably going to be registered in the first few days of April, rather than the very day of the birth.

                                          If you decide to order the Limerick one, the information you need is Limerick Apr – Jun 1924 Volume 5, page 288.

                                          You can order a photocopy of the certificate from GRO Roscommon for €4. http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply...tificates.aspx

                                          You have to download and print off the form. Then either post or fax it back to them. You can’t e-mail it to them. However if you want them to e-mail the cert to back to you, they will do that, so tick the relevant box.

                                          Put the reference details on the form (anywhere). Don’t worry about leaving some boxes blank. As long as GRO have the location, name(s), year, quarter (where there is one), volume and page number they should find it.

                                          However I would advise you to try and find Wm’s father’s name from, for example, his marriage certificate, to ensure that you have the right birth. Also do you have reliable documentary evidence of his date of birth eg his passport? Could the date be wrong?
                                          Has far has i know his date of birth matches for Wm Joseph O’Mara born in 1924 plus found his first and second wives marriage date which tie in with info. It wasnt def he was born in ireland but was a story that was passed down sadley there is no one has yet that can verufy this. Thank you for looking i appreciate it

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