Research in Northern Ireland

[LANDALES]

I have been tracing my dads family tree I traced my great great grandparents William and Eliza Thomson nee McCann to their wedding 2rd August in 1855 in Armagh Ireland I have the births of all their children William, John, James, Joseph and Catherine and the marriages and deaths of some of them. But what I want to know is when William and Eliza (Elizabeth) where born and died their parents. I know from one of their son John Thomson marriage certificate William Thomson was deceased in 1882 and from the son John Thomson death certificate of 1906 it doesn't mention his mum as deceased so I guess she was still alive in 1906. I have searched and searched different websites with no success I cannot find nothing. The reason put Elizabeth as on some certificates she is Eliza but on others she is written as Elizabeth. Is there anyway you could help me please?

Thank you

Hi Shell
Where did you get the marriage date for William and Eliza?
Thanks from Wendy

[shell777]

I have their marriage certificate county Armagh, Parish/ District Seagoe. Williams address was Derrymacash and Eliza was Ballynery, Their denomination Roman Catholics.. Williams occupation was a Blacksmith. Yes the information about the death of William by 1882 and Eliza still being alive did come from Scottish certificates.

[shell777]

The was county Armagh, Parish/ District Seagoe. Williams address was Derrymacash and Eliza was Ballynery, Their denomination Roman Catholics.. Williams occupation was a Blacksmith. Yes the information I have about the death of William by 1882 and Eliza still being alive did come from Scottish certificates.

[shell777]

Think I have done this wrong I have posted up a reply to your questions but I thought it would be posted above your questions.

[Elwyn]

The was county Armagh, Parish/ District Seagoe. Williams address was Derrymacash and Eliza was Ballynery, Their denomination Roman Catholics.. Williams occupation was a Blacksmith. Yes the information I have about the death of William by 1882 and Eliza still being alive did come from Scottish certificates.

Griffiths Valuation for 1864 lists what I think should be your William Thompson in Derrymacash. He appears to have had a house, forge, and 3 acres of land on plot 42. Looking at the revaluation records he left that property in 1867 when a John Bullick took over. That might mean he had died by that time.

A death in Ballymacash would be registered in Lurgan. I searched Lurgan deaths 1864 – 1868. I found 3 William Thompsons in that period who were of an age to be your man. 11.9.1865, aged 56, 3.4.1868 aged 70 and 17.7.1868 aged 43. I’d go for the 43 year old, given the couple only married in 1855, but you never know. It might have been a second marriage and he could be older than you expected.

If those 3 are not the right person, I would scroll forward up to 1882 looking for other likely deaths. You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

I looked to see if William of Derrymacash left a will but he didn’t. Or at least not one that required probate.

I looked for an Eliza(beth) Thom(p)son in Ireland in the 1901 census who was RC, a widow and born in Co Armagh. I did not find one. Could she have moved to Scotland to be with family there? Have you searched the 1901 Scottish census?

[shell777]

Thank you for your help I will look on that website buy some credits. I have searched Scottish census as has my dad but we couldn't find her. Searched deaths too. Never occurred to me until you mentioned it that it could be his 2rd marriage. I will keep looking for them..

[shell777]

I found it on roots Ireland along with their 5 children's certificate.. I know what happened to 2 of their children. but haven't found nothing on their other 3 in either Ireland or Scotland. Its just the wondering more about William and Eliza in where did they go etc..

[LANDALES]

I have their marriage certificate county Armagh, Parish/ District Seagoe. Williams address was Derrymacash and Eliza was Ballynery, Their denomination Roman Catholics.. Williams occupation was a Blacksmith. Yes the information about the death of William by 1882 and Eliza still being alive did come from Scottish certificates.

Hi Shell
On the marriage details what we're the fathers names?
What details don't you have for 3 kids? If I had the details you had I could search more closely.
Would you email me?
Landales@hotmail.com
Just trying to be of help via the Scottish side
Yours sincerely
Wendy

[LANDALES]

This is the Marriage details Elwyn

I really hoped the fathers' names would be there

Griffiths Valuation for 1864 lists what I think should be your William Thompson in Derrymacash. He appears to have had a house, forge, and 3 acres of land on plot 42. Looking at the revaluation records he left that property in 1867 when a John Bullick took over. That might mean he had died by that time.

A death in Ballymacash would be registered in Lurgan. I searched Lurgan deaths 1864 – 1868. I found 3 William Thompsons in that period who were of an age to be your man. 11.9.1865, aged 56, 3.4.1868 aged 70 and 17.7.1868 aged 43. I’d go for the 43 year old, given the couple only married in 1855, but you never know. It might have been a second marriage and he could be older than you expected.

If those 3 are not the right person, I would scroll forward up to 1882 looking for other likely deaths. You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

I looked to see if William of Derrymacash left a will but he didn’t. Or at least not one that required probate.

I looked for an Eliza(beth) Thom(p)son in Ireland in the 1901 census who was RC, a widow and born in Co Armagh. I did not find one. Could she have moved to Scotland to be with family there? Have you searched the 1901 Scottish census?

[LANDALES]

9Screenshot 2017-02-20 13.37.02.jpg
Hi I think this could be Elisa as in the marriage details Witness 1 called John McCann (I assume brother of Elisa) lived at Aughacommon and the residence at death of this Elisa is Aughacommon

[LANDALES]

I think I may be wrong about John McCann being Elisa's brother as this birth certificate shows J McCann as father
Screenshot 2017-02-20 13.44.56.jpg

[LANDALES]

I think this may have been Elisa and William's first child 3 years before their marriage. They probably couldn't afford a marriage but at least afforded to register their child
Screenshot 2017-02-20 21.42.47.jpg

[patriciamarie]

I have found my gggf richard rodgers was born in 1786 and died 1879..listing was in antrim, down district lurgan. I know the family lived in lurganconcary
had lease from Kilmorey Estates. I am trying to find out who Richard married, and his children. The lease went to an Alice Rodgers who I can find nothing
on (and it is not a regular family name) and from her to my ggf also Richard Rodgers born 1839 died 1911.

Any help would be very appreciated.


email removed

[Elwyn]

Pat,

I have sent you an e-mail.

[Sue1]

Hi Elwyn, I did in fact make you a guest on my Tree before hols and you continue to be on as a guest.
Let me know if you cannot get in still - the Tree you want is the "Cassidy, McGeough etc Tree. I am not sure what has gone wrong. If you still cannot get in let me know and I will send you a pm with an alternative way in. Sue

[Karamazov]

Hi Elwyn,
I will be visiting Belfast next week and intend to spend as much time as possible on Tuesday and Wednesday in PRONI.
If possible, I would very much like to find further info about the parents and siblings of my 2g grandfather, William Hoey, who was a Wesleyan Methodist minister from 1831 until his death in 1873.
These are the only clues I have re his pre-ministry life, from the official obituary which was printed in the (Wesleyan Methodist) Minutes of Conference in 1873:
"William Hoey 1st was born of godly parents near Brookeborough on 4 March 1808. He was the youngest of six sons, who were early left to the care of their widowed mother, and by her trained in the fear of God, and in attendance on Methodist ordinances."
From a quick online search of the PRONI catalogue it appears that Methodist baptisms in Brookborough are only available from 1815, which unfortunately post dates the birth of all 6 sons.

All William Hoey's sons followed Irish naming conventions and named their first son William, so on that basis it's possible that William's father was called John, as he named his first son John Foster Hoey. (I think the Foster middle name derives from the aunt mentioned in connection with his second marriage below so doesn't offer any further clues on the Hoey ancestor front.)

So I wonder if you might have any suggestions re other possible avenues to explore that might help me find details of his parents and siblings or of his first wife as mentioned below, or even of the mysterious Mrs Foster of Armagh.)

William married twice, both times whilst he was stationed in Dungannon. I only have this info from newspaper announcements extracted from various newspapers as both marriages pre-date civil registration.

Various publication dates in March 1841
On the 1st inst., by the Rev. Mr. Armstrong, the REV. MR. HOWIE, Wesleyan Minister, Dungannon, to MISS ELIZA RICHARDSON, of Aughereny, near Dungannon

Various publication dates in July 1842
On the 20th ult., by the Rev. Edward Johnson, Wesleyan Minister, Dungannon, the REV. WILLIAM HOEY, Wesleyan Minister, of same Place, to MISS BARNETT, daughter of the late MOSES BARNETT, ESQ., Strangford, and niece to MRS. FOSTER, Armagh

(Re the variant spelling in the first marriage announcement - I have checked with the Methodist archivist at Lennoxvale who confirms that this must refer to my William Hoey.)

So it looks like Eliza Richardson Hoey died between March 1841 and June 1842 at the latest, presumably in Dungannon. I am not aware of any child of this 1st marriage. William and Jane went on to have 10 children that I know of.

Any suggestions/pointers gratefully received...or is this a hopeless quest?
Thanks,
Christine

[Karamazov]

Postscript to the above: not sure to what extent William may have followed Irish naming conventions but for what it's worth, the names of his 6 sons might give clues as to the names of William's father and brothers:
John Foster Hoey
James Edward Hoey
William Henry Hoey
Moses Barnett Hoey (named after his maternal grandfather)
Thomas Guard Hoey (I think Guard is after a fellow Methodist minister)
Richard Alexander Hoey

[Elwyn]

Karamazov,

If going to PRONI for the first time, take your passport or driving licence, to get your reader’s ticket (Takes 3 minutes).

The Methodist records for Brookborough don’t start till 1841. It’s the Church of Ireland records that start in 1815.

Methodism took a lot longer to become established in Ireland as a separate denomination than in England. In Ireland there was considerable resistance to separating from the Church of Ireland. It was 1816 before Methodists agreed to conduct their own baptisms. However because of continuing loyalty and other factors, many continued to use the Church of Ireland for sacraments for many years after this date and it was 1871 before all Methodists routinely performed their own baptisms.

For marriages, the earliest ceremonies conducted by a Methodist Minister in Ireland that I am aware of, date from 1835 (Belfast Donegall Square, the first Methodist church in Ireland). However in the mid 1800s there were only a few Methodist Ministers in Ireland (Methodism relied heavily on lay preachers). So the shortage of Ministers contributed to the continuing practice of marrying in the Church of Ireland.

So to summarise, you are unlikely to find any Methodist baptisms much before 1830. Few marriages before the 1840s and only a handful for many years after that. If there are no Methodist records in the location you are interested in, I would search the Church of Ireland instead, as that’s the most likely place to find the relevant event. In this particular case it doesn’t appear that there will be a baptism record for William in 1808 because the Aghavea Church of Ireland records don’t go back far enough. The burials start in 1815 so you might find his parents burials there.

Not many Methodist Meeting Houses have graveyards and so they may be buried in public or Church of Ireland graveyards (which are open to all denominations).

Aughereny, near Dungannon is probably Aghareany. That’s in the parish of Donaghmore. There are several Richardson households there in Griffiths in 1860.

Dungannon Methodist church has baptisms from 1819 onwards but doesn’t have any marriages prior to 1865, so the inference I would draw from that is that they were still using the Church of Ireland for marriages. So I would check Donaghmore for the 1^st marriage and Drumglass for the second.

Two Church of Ireland churches in Donaghmore. Donaghmore has records from the 1740s. Donaghmore Upper’s early records were lost in the 1922 fire. Let’s hope your marriage was in the main church. Drumglass has marriage records from 1809 – 1845 so they seem complete.

Eliza Hoey’s death is long before the start of statutory death registration (1864) so you won’t find a death certificate for her. Methodists generally don’t keep burial records, so probably no record there either. The Church of Ireland does keep burial records but generally only for their own congregation. So unless there is a gravestone or a mention in the newspapers, there may be no record of Eliza’s death.

There’s a Mrs Grace Foster, Dobbin St, Armagh in Slater’s Directory 1846. That might be your Mrs Foster:

http://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0130.pdf

Probably a widow, but can’t be certain about that.

[Karamazov]

Hi Elwyn,
Thanks for the detailed reply. I've been to PRONI before and still have my reader card - in fact we met there a few years ago when you gave me a brief intro to using the catalogue etc.
Yes, I was going to look at the COI records for Aghavea as that seems the most likely "near Brookeborough" church but thanks for the info about the COI Parishes for Dungannon.
Thanks for the info re Mrs Foster - Jane Barnett (William's wife) had a sister Grace and it then repeats through the generations. I'll now try to work out if she was a maternal or paternal aunt, so something more to go at.

Regards,
Christine

[Fambuff3]

Hi Elwyn

I'm looking for information on Anne Moore & William McMonagle. I believe they married on 4th April 1848. Anne was a sister of my Gt.Gt. Granny Jane Moore who married Shelburn Kincaid on 22nd Feb 1851 @ Strabane Register Office. Jane & Anne's dad was called William.

Also looking for information on Mary Kincaid married to David Weir. Her father was Shelburn Kincaid but not sure if this is correct as I can find no birth for her in Jane Moore/Shelburn Kincaid's family, therefore not sure how she fits in; however the place of marriage fits, Manorcunningham, Raymochy Parish in Co.
Donegal

Also still looking on any information on Mary Wray b. 17.03.1892 in Tullyannan. Think she was a domestic to the McNieces's but lost track after that. She could have married.

Thank you.
Maggie