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    Originally posted by Fambuff3 View Post
    Hi Elwyn

    I'm looking for information on Anne Moore & William McMonagle. I believe they married on 4th April 1848. Anne was a sister of my Gt.Gt. Granny Jane Moore who married Shelburn Kincaid on 22nd Feb 1851 @ Strabane Register Office. Jane & Anne's dad was called William.

    Also looking for information on Mary Kincaid married to David Weir. Her father was Shelburn Kincaid but not sure if this is correct as I can find no birth for her in Jane Moore/Shelburn Kincaid's family, therefore not sure how she fits in; however the place of marriage fits, Manorcunningham, Raymochy Parish in Co.
    Donegal

    Also still looking on any information on Mary Wray b. 17.03.1892 in Tullyannan. Think she was a domestic to the McNieces's but lost track after that. She could have married.

    Thank you.
    Maggie
    I looked for the Moore – McMonagle marriage on 4.4.1848. Can’t see it in the civil records. Could it have been an RC ceremony in Raymoghy? If so, it should be in the on-line records but I don’t see it. There was only 1 RC marriage in Raymoghy in April 1848 so no great likelihood of missing it:

    https://registers.nli.ie/registers/v...ge/91/mode/1up

    What’s the source for the marriage date?

    You say you can’t find a Mary Kincade, whose father was Shelburn. That’s such a rare name that I’d be inclined to think it is the same family, and if Mary was marrying in 1876 her age would allow her to be the daughter of the 1851 marriage. Her birth was obviously before the start of statutory birth registration, so you are relying on baptism records. What was Shelburn’s occupation and denomination? Could he have moved around a little and she be baptised in a different parish, or one whose records for the 1850s are lost? The odd baptism did get missed from parish records. That’s another possible explanation.

    What was William Moore’s occupation and where did he live? What was Jane’s townland on her marriage certificate? That’d be the starting point for searching for her family? What denomination was she? (I note it was a Registry Office marriage. That often points to a mixed marriage).

    I had a quick look for Mary Wray/Ray but can’t see her for certain after 1911 in Derry. There’s a marriage in Derry on 23.4.1926 between Mary Wray and John McFeeters. You might want to pay to see it on the GRONI site, to see if that’s her.

    I assume this is part of your family in 1911. Joseph Shillone Wray is a mis-transcription of Shelburn.

    http://www.census.nationalarchives.i...ortree/500428/

    Evidently the parents were both dead if Joseph is looking after his 2 siblings. Joseph Shelburn Wray married Martha Francis Gardiner on 19.7.1906 at St Johnston Presbyterian.

    Perhaps this is Emily Wray in 1911:

    http://www.census.nationalarchives.i..._Upper/500747/
    Last edited by Elwyn; 06-11-17, 12:59.
    Elwyn

    I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

    Comment


      Thanks Elwynn. Shelburn Kincaid was C of I and was a Mason. Ann & Williams marriage came from Family Search but I don't have any further information sorry. Re Mary- looking at baptism records but anything on the marriage to David would be appreciated especially children. I have Emily Wray thank you. Will get the Mary Wray-John McFeeter's marriage thank you for that-I couldn't see a Mary Wray. William Moore was a labourer so moved about I presume. I need to have a look at the marriage of Jane to find the information you asked for. Thank you so much Maggie

      Comment


        Masons used to move about a lot to follow the work, and so it may be that some children were baptised in different parishes. Not all Church of Ireland (COI) parish records have survived the 1922 fire, and of those that do still exist, not all are on-line. PRONI in Belfast has a copy of all the surviving COI records for Co. Donegal and you can see from their church record catalogue what exists. But the records themselves are not on-line and a personal visit is required to view them.
        Elwyn

        I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

        Comment


          Hi Elwyn
          I wonder if you can help with pinning down the place name in bold below - I've mentioned it in post 10 of a thread I started called Moses Barnett Hoey in the main family research forum:

          "I've also came across a 1693 will reference to a Zacharias Barnett als Barney als Barny, gentleman of ArtMcKerny (sic) Co Tyrone, but haven't been able to locate this place to see if it is in the Clogher area. Perhaps Elwyn could give a pointer?"

          Thanks,
          Christine
          Researching:
          HOEY (Co Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Co Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Co Tyrone and Strangford, Co Down)

          Comment


            Originally posted by Elwyn View Post
            Anyone needing help with research in Northern Ireland is welcome to contact me for help.

            Elwyn Soutter
            Co Antrim
            Hello, Elwyn! I got redirected here from the Family History Research forums and was hoping you might be able to help me out? Unfortunately, my ancestor wasn't from North Ireland but a different area of Ireland.

            I've been trying to find the parents of my 3x great-grandfather, James C. Glennon. But I've been finding that trying to track down his baptismal in order to do that has proved almost impossible - every time I thought I'd nearly found it, it turned out to be incorrect.


            I know he was born in Westmeath, Ireland and I have two accounts that list his age: an 1850 Census of Drew County, Arkansas where he spent the later years of his life and an Army Enlistment in Boston, Massachusetts - likely not long after he had immigrated here.

            According to the census, he was 34 as of October 22, 1850, making his birth year 1816. And according to the Army Enlistment, he was 22 as of September 5, 1837, making his birth year 1815.

            So, I'm guessing his date of his birth was somewhere between Sep. 5 - Oct. 22 of 1816 in Westmeath, Ireland?? That's just a guess, though, I'm really not 100% sure. I know there's a lot of Glennons in Mullingar - more than other places in Ireland perhaps? - but I'm still not certain.

            Also, he was married to a woman named Anna Mariah Atkins (met her in Alabama/Georgia before they moved to Arkansas).


            Seems like every record I've found so far has been off in some way or another and I can't find out how to pinpoint it to where I know it's definitely his. If it's any help, the names of some of his children were Franklin, Frederick, Julius, Louisa, and Mary.

            Any further help with this would be MUCH appreciated!!!

            Sharon Glennon
            Last edited by StarQueen; 16-12-19, 15:37.

            Comment


              Sharon,

              I see from your original post you weren’t sure what denomination James Glennon was. I am sure he was Roman Catholic. I looked at the 1901 census for Co. Westmeath and there were 203 Glennons there then. Without exception, all were RC. There were 10 James Glennons. So the name is common in the county, and that will make tracing the right one difficult.

              I see that your James was James C. Glennon. In the early 1800s few Irish families in Ireland used middle names and they certainly rarely appear in baptism records. (A lot of Irish emigrants only appear to have acquired a middle initial or name when they reached the USA).

              Ages and dates of birth in the early 1800s nearly always need to be treated with caution. Irish people didn’t normally celebrate birthdays and often had little idea of exactly when they were born. If officialdom asked for an age or date of birth, they often just guessed or made one up.

              Your next problem is a lack of records. I have attached a link to a website listing all the parishes in Co. Westmeath.

              https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/c...thrc.php#maps/

              If you click on each one, it shows when their baptism records start. In many cases it’s the mid 1820s or later, which is too late for your James. So there’s a strong possibility that James (assuming he was born in Westmeath) comes from a parish that wasn’t keeping records when he was born. (Or has lost them if it did). There are some parishes with records for that period, including Mullingar’s which start in 1743 – with some gaps - and they are on-line on Ancestry, and on-line free at the nli site:

              https://www.nli.ie/en/family-history-introduction.aspx

              I looked on Ancestry for James Glennon born 1816 plus or minus 5 years, in Co. Westmeath. There was just one. He was baptised in August 1811 and his parents were Patrick Glennon and Catherine Giligan. However you should not assume that this is your family because at least half the parishes in the county weren’t keeping records then.

              Ideally in this situation you need to try to get his parents names from documentation in the US. Marriage and death records are the usual starting place. I gather that any marriage record has probably been destroyed, but what about a death certificate? Do you have that? Military records and naturalisation papers also often record parents details.

              I note James childrens names. Ireland (and Scotland) did have a naming pattern whereby children were named in respect of parents and grandparents etc in a particular order. However not every family used that system, and there were plenty of things that upset it, like children dying young and names being reused. Looking at the 5 names you have given, Franklin & Julius are not names that were ever widely used in Ireland, though the other 3 were. I don’t think your family were sticking strictly to the Irish naming pattern.

              One possibility you need to consider is that there may be no surviving documentary record of James in Ireland at all. Records for the early 1800s are few and far between. Most Irish research comes to a stop at what we call the 1800 barrier, due to this lack of records. (Apart from a few fragments, we have no censuses earlier than 1901).

              Possibly DNA testing may be a way of matching with others who have additional information about where the family originate.
              Elwyn

              I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

              Comment


                Elwyn,


                Ah, okay! Thank you for clearing that up for me!


                Well, that would make a lot of sense. No one - to my knowledge - actually know what the C. stood for in his name. Some have theorized it may have been Calvin since that was the name of his grandson but no one is certain.


                Oh really? That I never knew! :O Thank you so much for the links!


                Hm, truthfully it hadn't really occurred to me to look into him being older than the birth year I had known him by. Whilst helping me out earlier this year, someone did find one record of his immigration (or rather what may be him) - there was a James Glennon that arrived on ship St Leon at New York on 14 June 1836 from port Liverpool. His age was 29, his origin Ireland, laborer. There were no other Glennons on the manifest though.


                Well, on that note, that one is also a no. I don't believe death records had started yet during the time James died (February of 1860) although there is a Mortality Rate Schedule for him. The problem there though is that in 1860, they weren't listing parents on that schedule. Not until the following "census" in 1870.


                And the only military record I have of him would be this one: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJD5-5LR2


                But that does not list parents either, I'm afraid. Although, as it states there, he was sent to Fort King in Florida upon his discharge - meaning he fought in the Seminole Wars. Maybe I should look into that to see if there are any discharge papers for him on record...


                Yes, I was afraid of that. Sadly, I only have one DNA match I know of that is a Glennon whom I don't know how we relate. Based on the DNA, we share about 0.1% and 10 cm on chromosome segments. Her 4th great-grandfather was a man named John Glennon (b.1828) married to Ann (maiden name possibly Kenney/Kinney?), the parents of Rear Admiral John Henry Glennon. They immigrated from Ireland to Boston - the same place James had immigrated to.


                My theory is that John may have been a much younger brother of James but I'm not certain.

                Also, thank you so much for your help on this so far!!!!

                Comment


                  Just found something else! Apparently, the connection between James and John is not that of brothers but possibly cousins. I found a marriage record for John and Ann: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FH3F-44D

                  So it's possible that they were related some other way - in fact, very possible. I found a tiny bit more info about this James Glennon and his wife, Bridget, though. Apparently her full name was Bridget Keeley (b. 1814) and this James was born about 1806. He had a brother named Thomas (b.1814).

                  Back then, was it common or even possible to have more than one son with the same name? Or do you think it's more likely that John's father may have been a first cousin to James C. instead?
                  Last edited by StarQueen; 18-12-19, 01:19.

                  Comment


                    It would be unusual but not unknown to have 2 children both alive with the same name. Usually when the same name re-appears it’s because the first one died and the parents used the name again. (It was tradition to keep a family name alive, literally).

                    Ireland and Scotland shared a traditional naming pattern:

                    The 1st son was usually named after the father's father
                    The 2nd son was usually named after the mother's father
                    The 3rd son was usually named after the father
                    The 4th son was usually named after the father's eldest brother
                    The 5th son was usually named after the mother's eldest brother
                    The 1st daughter was usually named after the mother's mother
                    The 2nd daughter was usually named after the father's mother
                    The 3rd daughter was usually named after the mother
                    The 4th daughter was usually named after the mother's eldest sister
                    The 5th daughter was usually named after the father's eldest sister

                    One of the snags with that is if a child’s father and mother might both have fathers with the same name. So if say, the 2 fathers were both John, the first 2 male children both ought to be John too. Confusing obviously. Most families in that situation ignored the naming tradition and used a different name. Some however did name the 2nd child by the fathers’ name but actually called it something else. So baptised John but known as Patrick, for example.
                    Elwyn

                    I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                    Comment


                      Ah, I see! Hm...well, it's back to the drawing board for me then, I suppose lol.

                      Thanks so much for all your help with this, Elwyn! I'll have to dig a bit more into the Glennon family and see what I can come up with. I feel like I may just be out of luck though with finding his parents - at least for now. Although I had heard that people were working on uploading different baptismals and such online in the future so if not now, maybe I can find it sometime in the coming years. Always have to be optimistic

                      Thank you again for all of your help with this!!!
                      Last edited by StarQueen; 20-12-19, 21:08.

                      Comment


                        Hi Elwyn,
                        Hopefully you know the answer to this. I'm going to suggest to someone I've recently established contact with that he purchase a baptism record from the Ulster Historical Foundation at https://www.ancestryireland.com/fami...d-county-down/

                        Having never bought from there myself, I'd like to give him an idea of what he would be getting for his money.
                        So my question is - will he receive a transcription or a digitised copy of the original parish register entry?

                        I hope it's the latter although I suspect it will be the former!

                        The problem with getting a transcription only is that I have very strong reason to believe the transcription is wrong as it gives the father's name as William when it should be John. Perhaps the wrong first name introduced from the line above/below by the transcriber?

                        However, if it is a transcription-only record, would it include the name of the church, so I could look for it on the microfilms next time I am over in PRONI to confirm whether there really has been a transcription error or not.

                        I also posted another query for you upthread, post 164 but perhaps you didn't see it in the run-up to Christmas.

                        As always, thanks for your help.

                        Regards,

                        Christine
                        Researching:
                        HOEY (Co Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Co Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Co Tyrone and Strangford, Co Down)

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Karamazov View Post
                          Hi Elwyn,
                          Hopefully you know the answer to this. I'm going to suggest to someone I've recently established contact with that he purchase a baptism record from the Ulster Historical Foundation at https://www.ancestryireland.com/fami...d-county-down/

                          Having never bought from there myself, I'd like to give him an idea of what he would be getting for his money.
                          So my question is - will he receive a transcription or a digitised copy of the original parish register entry?

                          I hope it's the latter although I suspect it will be the former!

                          The problem with getting a transcription only is that I have very strong reason to believe the transcription is wrong as it gives the father's name as William when it should be John. Perhaps the wrong first name introduced from the line above/below by the transcriber?

                          However, if it is a transcription-only record, would it include the name of the church, so I could look for it on the microfilms next time I am over in PRONI to confirm whether there really has been a transcription error or not.

                          I also posted another query for you upthread, post 164 but perhaps you didn't see it in the run-up to Christmas.

                          As always, thanks for your help.

                          Regards,

                          Christine


                          Christine,

                          He’ll receive a transcript. If he wants to see a digitized copy he’ll probably need to go to PRONI (If you can’t get there just now, I can do that or he can pay PRONI to copy it for him). Occasionally the records are held elsewhere, but mostly they are in PRONI. The only exception will be if it is a Roman Catholic record, in which case digitized copies are available free on the national library of Ireland site.

                          There are certainly transcription mistakes on all the on-line sites, and best research advice is always to view the originals if you can.

                          The transcription should indicate the church or at least the denomination and location. (Some bigger parishes have more than 1 church in them).

                          I missed your post 164. Sorry about that. Townland names have changed over the years and some have disappeared altogether but I reckon this is probably Aughnacarney, which is in the parish of Clogher.

                          There were still Barnetts in the Clogher area in the tithe applotment records in 1829 though none in that townland:

                          https://cotyroneireland.com/tithe/clogher.html



                          Elwyn
                          Elwyn

                          I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Elwyn View Post



                            Christine,

                            He’ll receive a transcript. If he wants to see a digitized copy he’ll probably need to go to PRONI (If you can’t get there just now, I can do that or he can pay PRONI to copy it for him). Occasionally the records are held elsewhere, but mostly they are in PRONI. The only exception will be if it is a Roman Catholic record, in which case digitized copies are available free on the national library of Ireland site.

                            There are certainly transcription mistakes on all the on-line sites, and best research advice is always to view the originals if you can.

                            The transcription should indicate the church or at least the denomination and location. (Some bigger parishes have more than 1 church in them).

                            I missed your post 164. Sorry about that. Townland names have changed over the years and some have disappeared altogether but I reckon this is probably Aughnacarney, which is in the parish of Clogher.

                            There were still Barnetts in the Clogher area in the tithe applotment records in 1829 though none in that townland:

                            https://cotyroneireland.com/tithe/clogher.html



                            Elwyn
                            Thanks Elwyn.
                            He went ahead and got the transcript which showed the baptism took place in St Anne's, Belfast. I hope to be over in Belfast again later this year and hopefully will have time to check the microfilm, especially as it may well be that other siblings were baptised there as well. The record in question was for a Mary Louisa Dyer baptised Aug 1856. I now have proof that she was the daughter of John (not William) Dyer and Eliza Taylor. It will be interesting to see if the microfilm version confirms this.
                            Thanks too for the info re Aughnacarney.

                            Regards,
                            Christine
                            Researching:
                            HOEY (Co Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Co Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Co Tyrone and Strangford, Co Down)

                            Comment


                              Christine,

                              In case you haven’t been to PRONI for a while, they now have some Church of Ireland records on 4 desk top computers (in addition to the old microfilm versions). There are in the middle of the bank of tables in the microfilm room. These have St Anne’s baptisms 1745 to 1911, marriages 1745 – 1914 and burials 1745 – 1809.


                              Elwyn
                              Elwyn

                              I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Elwyn View Post
                                Christine,

                                In case you haven’t been to PRONI for a while, they now have some Church of Ireland records on 4 desk top computers (in addition to the old microfilm versions). There are in the middle of the bank of tables in the microfilm room. These have St Anne’s baptisms 1745 to 1911, marriages 1745 – 1914 and burials 1745 – 1809.


                                Elwyn
                                That's good news - beats sitting in the gloom of the microfilm section churning through the reels! Thanks for the info.

                                Christine
                                Researching:
                                HOEY (Co Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Co Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Co Tyrone and Strangford, Co Down)

                                Comment


                                  Elwyn -
                                  I'm trying to sort out some cousins in Donegal, born within CivReg times. But I don't know the registration districts, and the link to their explanation on irishgenealogy isn't working for me. Do you know of a source for that info that you can share?
                                  Thanks
                                  Sarah
                                  ------------------------------------------------------
                                  My Families
                                  London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                                  Comment


                                    OK, I've found a useful tool, not quite what I want, but it works:
                                    https://www.swilson.info/regdistmap.php

                                    So, I'm looking for the birth of James Steele, born ~1863. I think this link to his record in 1901 will work:
                                    http://www.census.nationalarchives.i.../nai000674828/

                                    I'm not finding his birth registration on irishgenealogy. How compliant were people with registration by the time of his birth?
                                    BTW - his father should be William (and mother, Sarah, as stated in the census record)
                                    Last edited by PhotoFamily; 15-04-20, 17:11. Reason: oops, estimated dob miscalculated
                                    ------------------------------------------------------
                                    My Families
                                    London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                                      OK, I've found a useful tool, not quite what I want, but it works:
                                      https://www.swilson.info/regdistmap.php

                                      So, I'm looking for the birth of James Steele, born ~1873. I think this link to his record in 1901 will work:
                                      http://www.census.nationalarchives.i.../nai000674828/

                                      I'm not finding his birth registration on irishgenealogy. How compliant were people with registration by the time of his birth?
                                      BTW - his father should be William (and mother, Sarah, as stated in the census record)
                                      I think your maths has gone a bit haywire - 38 in 1901 means born circa 1863 so just before civil registration. Have a look on irishgenealogy.ie anyway, just in case. Registration district is Inishowen. I found his 1896 marriage with no problem.
                                      Protestant marriages from 1845 are now available so hopefully you can find his parents' marriage.

                                      Christine

                                      PS just noticed that he has an older brother with him in 1911 who is 68 so it looks like parents' marriage pre-dated 1845.
                                      Researching:
                                      HOEY (Co Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Co Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Co Tyrone and Strangford, Co Down)

                                      Comment


                                        Yes, I corrected my math.
                                        This surname (Steele) is much more common in Donegal than those of my direct ancestry.
                                        I have some prints of the Presbyterian register, and have started to work my way thru that. The images were specifically searching for my peeps, tho, so I'll be lucky if I find Steeles in the pages that I have.
                                        ------------------------------------------------------
                                        My Families
                                        London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                                        Comment


                                          Elwyn, continuing on the Blackburn(e) theme -
                                          William Blackburne is in Far Three Trees in the Landed Estates Court Rentals 1850-1885.
                                          Tenant's Names - William Blackburne, formerly William Culbert
                                          Leased dated 29th September, 1826 from John Chambers to William Culbert.

                                          Any possibility that William Culbert's name change would have been done in a court and there are surviving records?
                                          Any speculation about that name change?

                                          Thanks
                                          sarah
                                          ------------------------------------------------------
                                          My Families
                                          London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                                          Comment

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