Research in Northern Ireland

[Yvonne from Oz]

Hello Elwyn, just beginning to do my research on an Irish ancestor in more depth as my original goal was to find all the 'first ancestors' to arrive in Australia.

Having done that I am tentatively beginning to 'cross the sea'. Starting last year, we went to Scotland chasing an ancestor and I am hoping to come to Ireland next year - 2015

The surname is Mulholland and my first question is - is it an original Irish surname? John Mulholland was from Cooktown, Co Tyrone and the birth date is about 1820. (not expecting you to find him but just giving you a timeframe for the surname.)

Thank you.

[Elwyn]

Hello Elwyn, just beginning to do my research on an Irish ancestor in more depth as my original goal was to find all the 'first ancestors' to arrive in Australia.

Having done that I am tentatively beginning to 'cross the sea'. Starting last year, we went to Scotland chasing an ancestor and I am hoping to come to Ireland next year - 2015

The surname is Mulholland and my first question is - is it an original Irish surname? John Mulholland was from Cooktown, Co Tyrone and the birth date is about 1820. (not expecting you to find him but just giving you a timeframe for the surname.)

Thank you.

It looks to be a name common to both Scotland and Ireland, though statistically more common to those of Irish ancestry. Taking the 1901 Irish census, there were 2579 people of that name listed. 1642 were RC (broadly implying Irish ancestry) but there were 325 Presbyterians (Scottish ancestry) and 427 Church of Ireland (who could be either Scottish or English). So take your pick. If you know your ancestors religious denomination, then you may get a clue from that.

Given that the majority were RC many must originate in Ireland but given the number of Presbyterians, it is clear that a significant number also settled in Ireland from Scotland (mostly in the 1600s). But there were also some RC settlers from Scotland too, so some of the RC population could also be of Scottish descent.

If you narrow the field of search to Tyrone, there were 130, of whom 64 were RC, 24 Presbyterian & 41 COI. (Plus others eg Baptists etc).

[Karamazov]

If he died in Mountjoy prison then the death should be registered in the usual way. With his age you may be able identify it on the civil indexes site. I think Mountjoy will be in Dublin North regn district.

I am not sure whether court papers relating to a trial in 1930 would be closed or not. You could try contacting Mountjoy to see if they can assist with any details of his imprisonment, and place of burial. If not, they may be able to tell you where the relevant records are. (Probably National Archives, Dublin). You may need a Freedom of Information request to try and access such recent records.

Thanks for the advice Elwyn - will put it on my to do list to follow up when time permits!
Christine

[Yvonne from Oz]

Thank you Elwyn - I did wonder about Scottish descent. I really would have loved a real Irish ancestor but on the assisted Immigrant Passenger List his religion is noted as Church of England - which was why I asked you the original question.

The main information I have regarding John Mulholland comes from the Assisted Immigrant Passenger List.

He came out to Australia on the Agnes Ewing arriving on the 18th Jan 1842. His age is given as 22 and His parents were noted as Henry and Elizabeth Mulholland - both alive when he left.

John was married to Elizabeth Rebecca Powell on the 29th June 1841 at Lisburn, Ireland. This information is not my own research but something I was given and am trying to verify. I would like to know what steps to take to find their marriage if possible?

John and Elizabeth had 13 children in Australia (last three apparently stillborn) and John died in 1865 leaving his wife with 10 children! She didn't die till 1897 so we know more about her side of the family.

[Elwyn]

Thank you Elwyn - I did wonder about Scottish descent. I really would have loved a real Irish ancestor but on the assisted Immigrant Passenger List his religion is noted as Church of England - which was why I asked you the original question.

The main information I have regarding John Mulholland comes from the Assisted Immigrant Passenger List.

He came out to Australia on the Agnes Ewing arriving on the 18th Jan 1842. His age is given as 22 and His parents were noted as Henry and Elizabeth Mulholland - both alive when he left.

John was married to Elizabeth Rebecca Powell on the 29th June 1841 at Lisburn, Ireland. This information is not my own research but something I was given and am trying to verify. I would like to know what steps to take to find their marriage if possible?

John and Elizabeth had 13 children in Australia (last three apparently stillborn) and John died in 1865 leaving his wife with 10 children! She didn't die till 1897 so we know more about her side of the family.

Yvonne,

Just what a “real Irish ancestor” is, is something we could probably debate at length. (And it’s not John Wayne in the Quiet Man). People have been moving back and forth around the British Isles for the past five thousand years. It’s only 13 miles from Ireland to Scotland at the closest point. Consider just how much local migration there would have been, especially before proper roads, when boat was the easiest form of travel. Inside every Irishman, there’s often Welsh, English or Scottish ancestry at some point, and vice versa. English, Irish Scots & Welsh are nearly all of Brythonic origin with a smattering of outside influences eg Viking, Spaniard and Norman. A hotchpotch.

If John was Church of England on the passenger list, then he would have been Church of Ireland in Ireland. For the marriage, we also really need to know what Elizabeth’s denomination was. (Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, so that might not necessarily be the Church of Ireland).

The answer to your question about where to find the marriage is that statutory marriage registration started in April 1845, so you won’t find a statutory marriage certificate. You need to check the church records, if they still exist. They are not all on-line, nor are they mostly indexed, and some have been lost. Many of the surviving records for the Lisburn area are kept in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast.

The Ulster Historical Foundation does have 3 John Mulholland marriages in 1841, in Cos Antrim & Down but none are to a woman named Powell. You might want to check them out all the same (pay to view). http://www.ancestryireland.com

I had a look at the church records today. Lisburn is in the parish of Blaris. There are quite a few churches in the area. The main ones in 1841 were Lisburn Church of Ireland, Broomhedge Church of Ireland plus the 1st Presbyterian church. All have been there for hundreds of years. I looked up Lisburn Church of Ireland (MIC583/9) but the marriage is not listed there. Likewise it’s not in Lisburn 1^st Presbyterian church (MIC1P/159). Broomhedge’s records for 1841 are destroyed (in the 1922 fire in Dublin), so if that’s where they married, we won’t find it. Or the marriage might have taken in an adjacent parish near Lisburn.

I think you need to try and check the origins of the information, and the reliability of the marriage date (I only checked a few days either side, so if it’s out by a month or a year, I will have missed it).

[Yvonne from Oz]

Elwyn, thank you so much, that information is so interesting. I will track back through my sources - hoping that I was good and recorded properly, but it was when I first started FH and was learning about computers and I was more excited than thorough!!

[Guest]

Hello Elwyn

I am looking into some family history for my friend who lives in Belfast and whose parents were born there in1920 & 1921.

I've put this info into Ancestry with exact birth dates, death dates, their daughter's names and no hints come up at all - am I doing something wrong? The family is Protestant.
Do I need to limit the search to a specific index?

Any suggestions would be extremely welcome.

Thanks, Amanda

p.s. in my own research, I believe my family McKanna came from Monaghan. Someone told me this was on the border, is it considered North to you??

[Elwyn]

Amanda,

Ancestry don’t have births, deaths and marriages in Northern Ireland after 31.12.1921. You can search for births to 1939 and deaths to 1964 in NI on the GRONI site. For later events you need to e-mail GRONI, and ask them to search for you. (additional fees apply):

Ancestry should have the births if they were in 1920 or 1921. Otherwise you need to e-mail GRONI and get them to search (or go into GRONI and search yourself).

Monaghan is in the Republic of Ireland, so it’s not in the north. (It is in the Province of Ulster though).

GRONI: https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk


Elwyn

[Fambuff3]

Hello Elwyn,

Thank you for your previous help and posts above. Just an update, I have found my Gt granny Rebecca's Baptism via help from Raymochy Parishes Historical Society as well as a couple of siblings that I didn't have. However, I am still having problems finding Mary, daughter of Rebecca and Joseph , though Fanny married a McNab and went to Canada and I have managed to find her there. If you could perhaps help with Mary(b. 17.03.1892 Tullyannan, All Saints, Taughboyne) I'd be very grateful. She is the only one I can't seem to trace. I have an inkling that she could have been a domestic for a McNiece (Milliniece) family in the Londonderry area (from Census 1911) but I'm not able to confirm this. Any info/advice on this would help me enormously. Slowly but surely I'm chipping away at this and building a tree. Many thanks Maggie Wray

[Elwyn]

Maggie,

Difficult to know what to suggest. I agree that the girl you found in Pump St in the 1911 census could well be your Mary. I looked for a marriage for her in Londonderry 1911 – 1921 but none is listed. I also searched for a death up to 1921. There’s just one in Jan – Mar 1918 for a Mary Ann Wray (est year of birth 1886).

Huge numbers of young women from Donegal and Derry went to Scotland to find better paid work. (Indeed they still do). She could easily have done that. Scotland is very close (with a regular ferry service to Glasgow from Derry until the 1960s) and so is always the first place to look when someone from that area of Ireland disappears. But she could have gone to England, or anywhere really. Without some leads, it’s difficult to know where to look.

I searched for marriages in Scotland and there is only one Mary Wray in the period 1911 – 1925. She married a Hugh Bellshaw in Gorbals, Glasgow in 1919. You would need to pay to view the certificate on Scotlandspeople to see what her father’s name was.

[Fambuff3]

Thank you very much Elwyn. I suspect she may have come to Glasgow because her sisters did, one stayed there and one went to Canada. I'll check out that marriage you mention. I may come back to you shortly and ask about the Kincaids, as though I managed to find some information with help from the parish record for Shelburn Kincaid& Jane Moore children I'm about to embark on looking for Jane's birth/death and Shelburn's birth as well as marriages for their children. Will see what I can track down first though. Once again thank you for helping people who can't access the records in person. It's invaluable.
Regards
Maggie Wray

[Karamazov]

Hello Elwyn,
I am visiting Belfast very shortly and would like to try and find the grave of my great grandmother, Clara Hoey, nee Dyer. She died 9 March 1894. (In case it's relevant she married in a Methodist ceremony, although I'm not sure if she herself was Methodist or CoI.) All I have to go on is the newspaper announcement saying: "Her remains will be removed for interment in Newtownbreda Burying-ground." From googling, I don't think this graveyard exists under this name anymore. I think it may well be the graveyard at Knockbreda Church but I can't 100% confirm this. If I'm wrong here, could you give me some further pointers re finding Newtownbreda Burying Ground? Thanks.

I have phoned Knockbreda Cemetery but unfortunately, their records only date from the early 1900s. They've told me earlier records are available at PRONI. Again could you give some pointers here - if I were to find the correct microfilm, what sort of information is likely to be contained there? Would it give the precise grave location/plot number?
Thanks for your help.
Regards,
Christine

[Elwyn]

Christine,

The records can vary. In some cases it’s just a list of burials by name and date and in others it’s a complete record of who is in each grave, their last address, and the exact plot number. (You usually then need to contact the cemetery office to get the actual plan, to know where that plot is located). Leave this with me for a day or two and I’ll look at the PRONI records next time I am in there. (Probably next Tuesday). We can then hopefully work backwards from that to ensure you go to the correct graveyard.


It wouldn’t be unusual to find a Methodist buried in a Church of Ireland graveyard. She may have changed denomination to her husband’s after she married (as was the custom). But if not, few Methodists churches have their own graveyards, Methodism was an off-shoot of the Church of Ireland/England and Church of Ireland graveyards are open to all anyway, so for all those reasons it is common to find Methodists buried there.

[Artsangelssheila]

Hi Elwyn,
I am researching my ggg grandmother, Sarah Darragh, who was born in Glenarm, County Antrim in about 1845. Her father's name was Hugh and her mother's name was Sarah. I have found record of the family in the 1851 census living on Toberwine and also in Griffiths. Sarah and her sister Mary immigrated to San Francisco, California. I have a copy of Mary's death certificate (Sarah's was lost in the 1906 earthquake). On the certificate the mothers maiden name is listed as McConnlan. I know this is incorrect. I sure it was spelled as it sounded. (Think Irish to American ears) I know that Sarah and Hugh were married in 1838. I have hit a wall with my research and can't seem to go back further without the correct maiden name. Any ideas? Thank you so much. Sheila

[Elwyn]

Hi Elwyn,
I am researching my ggg grandmother, Sarah Darragh, who was born in Glenarm, County Antrim in about 1845. Her father's name was Hugh and her mother's name was Sarah. I have found record of the family in the 1851 census living on Toberwine and also in Griffiths. Sarah and her sister Mary immigrated to San Francisco, California. I have a copy of Mary's death certificate (Sarah's was lost in the 1906 earthquake). On the certificate the mothers maiden name is listed as McConnlan. I know this is incorrect. I sure it was spelled as it sounded. (Think Irish to American ears) I know that Sarah and Hugh were married in 1838. I have hit a wall with my research and can't seem to go back further without the correct maiden name. Any ideas? Thank you so much. Sheila

Sheila,

Layd RC marriages appear to start in 1837 which means your family should just scrape in. Have you checked those records for the 1838 marriage? (I assume you have noticed that Hugh was married previously. First marriage in 1832)?

[Artsangelssheila]

Elwyn,
Thank you so much for the speedy reply! Your suggestion is much appreciated. I did notice that Hugh had been married previously. I am assuming the oldest daughter Margaret (away at Carnlough in the census) was from the first marriage. I have checked every online site available. Given your information, I think my next step must be a Family Search center and try to see if the church records are on microfiche. Thanks again. Sheila

[Elwyn]

Elwyn,
Thank you so much for the speedy reply! Your suggestion is much appreciated. I did notice that Hugh had been married previously. I am assuming the oldest daughter Margaret (away at Carnlough in the census) was from the first marriage. I have checked every online site available. Given your information, I think my next step must be a Family Search center and try to see if the church records are on microfiche. Thanks again. Sheila

Sheila,

I don’t think the early records are on-line anywhere. UHF have 1860 onwards on their site but I don't know of any site that has material before that.

There’s a set of the earliest records on microfilm in PRONI in Belfast and another in the National Library in Dublin. In either case a personal visit is required to access them. (If you can’t get there yourself, you may need to hire a researcher). PRONI may also do a look-up for you but there will be a fee. (Normally around £16 per 15 minutes work).

See: http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/b...unties/rcmaps/

[Artsangelssheila]

Thank you. I'm live on the West Coast in Southern California. I am definitely going to visit Ireland in the next year or so. Most of my early ancestors immigrated to San Francisco. Unfortunately, most of the critical records were lost in the 1906 earthquake and subsequent fires. Again, many thanks. Sheila

[Karamazov]

Christine,

The records can vary. In some cases it’s just a list of burials by name and date and in others it’s a complete record of who is in each grave, their last address, and the exact plot number. (You usually then need to contact the cemetery office to get the actual plan, to know where that plot is located). Leave this with me for a day or two and I’ll look at the PRONI records next time I am in there. (Probably next Tuesday). We can then hopefully work backwards from that to ensure you go to the correct graveyard.


It wouldn’t be unusual to find a Methodist buried in a Church of Ireland graveyard. She may have changed denomination to her husband’s after she married (as was the custom). But if not, few Methodists churches have their own graveyards, Methodism was an off-shoot of the Church of Ireland/England and Church of Ireland graveyards are open to all anyway, so for all those reasons it is common to find Methodists buried there.

Hello Elwyn,
I've just sent you a PM.
Regards,
Christine

[Jeff_1951]

Hi Rach,
I'm a great-grandson of James and Jane (Nicholas) Green. Thier son, George Green (b. Mar. 24, 1895) was my dad's father. George and his brother James Green (bap. Apr. 22,1885) emigrated to the U.S. on the S.S. Haverford that departed Liverpool on Oct. 27, 1909 and arrived in Philadelphia on Nov. 8, 1909. I know little of their past, but I do have a photo of James and Jane Nicholas and also a photo of James and his second wife. James, Sr. came to to the U.S. to visit young George in 1910, who was staying with his aunt Jennie (Green) Westwood (James' sister) and her husband, William Westwood. This visit actually got recorded on the 1910 U.S. Census in Pleasantville, NJ. It shows James Green, age 52 as brother-in-law, widowed, born Ireland, both parents born in Ireland (all shown as English citizens). It also shows he was a carpenter and worked in a shipyard.
My grandfather, George, told me about this visit by his father, but didn't say that he came here for work. He did say that he returned to England shortly afterward and that was the last time he saw him. George and James wrote to each other a few times and his father remarried, but we don't know when or what her name was. We only have a photo of the two of them that James sent.

Jeff Green