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Looking for Simmons in 1861

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    #21
    Originally posted by thomasalbertedward View Post
    I have a theory but it's only that - Simmons' father, John Butler, had a successful carpentry firm, first in London and by 1861 back in Berkshire, at Hurst which is only about 20 miles from Hedgerley I think. On the 1861 census Thomas and Charlotte are at Hedgerley with a couple of carpenters, who I think would have been doing work to the house before it sold. I've always wondered if Simmons also worked on the house at some point, since he was a carpenter by trade too. Another reason I would really love to locate him on the 1861 census.
    It has to be something like that. Maybe travelling around a bit for jobs meant a miss from the census, be nice to find him. I assume his father is John Simmons Butler that is listed in directories?
    Carolyn
    Family Tree site

    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

    Comment


      #22
      Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
      I think the 1861 is a good possible for Sarah Palmer. In the household is a Margaret Hutchinson aged 70 a Widow b Chatteris (as was father Joseph Palmer). Ancestry is cross referencing Margaret with a Margaret Palmer who married a Robert Hutchinson. So possible Aunt

      Vera
      Looks like an intriguing one then. They do appear to be 'together' in the household. good detective work.
      Carolyn
      Family Tree site

      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

      Comment


        #23
        Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
        I think the 1861 is a good possible for Sarah Palmer. In the household is a Margaret Hutchinson aged 70 a Widow b Chatteris (as was father Joseph Palmer). Ancestry is cross referencing Margaret with a Margaret Palmer who married a Robert Hutchinson. So possible Aunt



        Vera
        That is terrific detective work Vera

        Comment


          #24
          Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
          It has to be something like that. Maybe travelling around a bit for jobs meant a miss from the census, be nice to find him. I assume his father is John Simmons Butler that is listed in directories?
          Yes, that's his father. When he died in 1874, Charlotte had "son of John" inscribed on his gravestone. He was an only son with several sisters.

          Comment


            #25
            Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
            Looks like an intriguing one then. They do appear to be 'together' in the household. good detective work.
            You are all terrific detectives Carolyn

            Comment


              #26
              There is a Margaret Palmer marriage:

              Marriage Date: 23 Oct 1814
              Marriage Place: Chatteris, Cambridgeshire, England
              Spouse: Robert Hutchin

              looks like she could be father Jospehs sister from baptism records, well done Vera

              Not me - it was Vera
              Last edited by cbcarolyn; 12-09-19, 22:58.
              Carolyn
              Family Tree site

              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                There is a Margaret Palmer marriage:

                Marriage Date: 23 Oct 1814
                Marriage Place: Chatteris, Cambridgeshire, England
                Spouse: Robert Hutchin

                looks like she could be father Jospehs sister from baptism records, well done Vera

                Not me - it was Vera
                Thanks Carolyn, a great help.

                So Sarah Palmer was still alive in 1861 - she's listed as married on the census so I presume she and Simmons were still together and he was away working.

                Will check out the death that Vera found.

                Thanks again all

                Comment


                  #28
                  Originally posted by thomasalbertedward View Post
                  Thanks Carolyn, a great help.

                  So Sarah Palmer was still alive in 1861 - she's listed as married on the census so I presume she and Simmons were still together and he was away working.

                  Will check out the death that Vera found.

                  Thanks again all
                  This is getting more intriguing. The death Vera found would fit - and make Simmons a bigamist who absconded to Australia, so very interesting.

                  Then found this woman on the 1871 census: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-b...&rhSource=8767. She could have gone back to using her maiden name Palmer or could be a completely different woman. Will have to do a bit more searching.

                  I think this could be Margaret Hutchinson's death in 1867: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-b...=successSource

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Ancestry not letting me sign in to UK to see your links

                    I'm now wondering about that 1864 death for Sarah. Looking to see if Sarah Palmer Butler re-married.

                    Can see on FMP a possible marriage
                    Parish of St Anne, Westminster 1866
                    Samuel Vary 32 Bachelor Gas Fitter residing Church St f William ?Cutler/Cutter
                    Sarah Butler 32 Widow S/A f Joseph Palmer, Builder
                    Witnesses John Cramer, Louisa Vary

                    1871 Sarah visiting Dunn family in Lambeth. Married, Dressmaker b City of London

                    Death for a Sarah Vary 1874 Pancras reg. Burial 1/9/1874 Pancras cemetery

                    Vera

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
                      Ancestry not letting me sign in to UK to see your links

                      I'm now wondering about that 1864 death for Sarah. Looking to see if Sarah Palmer Butler re-married.

                      Can see on FMP a possible marriage
                      Parish of St Anne, Westminster 1866
                      Samuel Vary 32 Bachelor Gas Fitter residing Church St f William ?Cutler/Cutter
                      Sarah Butler 32 Widow S/A f Joseph Palmer, Builder
                      Witnesses John Cramer, Louisa Vary

                      1871 Sarah visiting Dunn family in Lambeth. Married, Dressmaker b City of London

                      Death for a Sarah Vary 1874 Pancras reg. Burial 1/9/1874 Pancras cemetery

                      Vera
                      This looks really intriguing - thank you so much!

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
                        Ancestry not letting me sign in to UK to see your links

                        I'm now wondering about that 1864 death for Sarah. Looking to see if Sarah Palmer Butler re-married.

                        Can see on FMP a possible marriage
                        Parish of St Anne, Westminster 1866
                        Samuel Vary 32 Bachelor Gas Fitter residing Church St f William ?Cutler/Cutter
                        Sarah Butler 32 Widow S/A f Joseph Palmer, Builder
                        Witnesses John Cramer, Louisa Vary

                        1871 Sarah visiting Dunn family in Lambeth. Married, Dressmaker b City of London

                        Death for a Sarah Vary 1874 Pancras reg. Burial 1/9/1874 Pancras cemetery

                        Vera
                        that's definitely her - Vera, you're a genius

                        Samuel Vary is on the 1871 census lodging with the Taylor family: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-b...=successSource

                        He married twice more - Ann Williams in 1875 - she died in 1882 - and Emily Allen in 1883.

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
                          Ancestry not letting me sign in to UK to see your links
                          copy link (to anywhere) and change to co.uk then copy to url box and it works
                          Carolyn
                          Family Tree site

                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                          Comment


                            #33
                            Originally posted by thomasalbertedward View Post
                            that's definitely her - Vera, you're a genius

                            Samuel Vary is on the 1871 census lodging with the Taylor family: https://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-b...=successSource

                            He married twice more - Ann Williams in 1875 - she died in 1882 - and Emily Allen in 1883.
                            Cant be 100% as Joseph the only possible link I can see, although others add up.

                            Still not seeing Simmons. When did he die?

                            There is a newspaper article re Thomas D inquest. Sudden death from liver failure. Apparently consulted a pharmacist as was usual back in the day who then referred him to brother for treatment.

                            Genius you say. No. I have access to lots of sites which helps. Just watch me try to copy and paste using Carolyn's instructions.

                            Vera
                            Last edited by vera2013; 13-09-19, 11:57.

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                              copy link (to anywhere) and change to co.uk then copy to url box and it works
                              Thanks Carolyn. I'm working from a Kindle which is Android. Is that still possible

                              My laptop has Windows 10 downloaded. Never works. Constant and varied messages why I am disconnected. Takes an age too.

                              Vera

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Yes should be I actually use the reply box to paste to, change au.com to co UK then. Copy again and put in address bar
                                Carolyn
                                Family Tree site

                                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
                                  Cant be 100% as Joseph the only possible link I can see, although others add up.

                                  Still not seeing Simmons. When did he die?

                                  There is a newspaper article re Thomas D inquest. Sudden death from liver failure. Apparently consulted a pharmacist as was usual back in the day who then referred him to brother for treatment.

                                  Genius you say. No. I have access to lots of sites which helps. Just watch me try to copy and paste using Carolyn's instructions.

                                  Vera
                                  You are very clever, no doubt.

                                  I would be very confident it's her. Joseph Palmer was a builder and her other census records say born in the City of London - and the ages are right.

                                  I'm still not seeing Simmons either on the 1861 census - he died here in Australia in 1874 and is buried in the local cemetery.

                                  I have the newspaper article about Thomas' death, thank you. I read the article as Mr Rayner, the chemist telling Thomas that there was nothing more he could do for him and that Thomas should go and stay with his own brother - who would have been his brothers James and John who were both still unmarried and living in Horton, Buckinghamshire at the time - I think about 35 miles from Uxbridge where Thomas and Charlotte were renting a house when he died.

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    [QUOTE

                                    I have the newspaper article about Thomas' death, thank you. I read the article as Mr Rayner, the chemist telling Thomas that there was nothing more he could do for him and that Thomas should go and stay with his own brother - who would have been his brothers James and John who were both still unmarried and living in Horton, Buckinghamshire at the time - I think about 35 miles from Uxbridge where Thomas and Charlotte were renting a house when he died.[/QUOTE]

                                    This is another version. Either way Thomas died when a very young man


                                    Capture Piggott d.JPG

                                    Not sure if that will work. Probably quicker to type it out

                                    Vera

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
                                      [QUOTE

                                      I have the newspaper article about Thomas' death, thank you. I read the article as Mr Rayner, the chemist telling Thomas that there was nothing more he could do for him and that Thomas should go and stay with his own brother - who would have been his brothers James and John who were both still unmarried and living in Horton, Buckinghamshire at the time - I think about 35 miles from Uxbridge where Thomas and Charlotte were renting a house when he died.
                                      This is another version. Either way Thomas died when a very young man


                                      Capture Piggott d.JPG

                                      Not sure if that will work. Probably quicker to type it out

                                      Vera[/QUOTE]

                                      That's grand! Thank you Vera !
                                      Last edited by thomasalbertedward; 13-09-19, 21:13.

                                      Comment

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