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St. Michael's, Dumfries.

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    #21
    She has been an absolute star!!
    Thanks Christine.
    x
    Cath.

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      #22
      Aww shucks, it was a pleasure to help out. Dumfries is no prob. as it’s virtually on the doorstep. :-)

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        #23
        Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
        Have you checked with any local FHS, they are usually the ones whose members do the MI recording and publish them either as CDs or paper booklets?
        Hi GL. MIs for practically every parish graveyard around me have been recorded and published by the local FHS and very useful they have been over the decades. Each record includes any monumental mason firm's name (if there is one) and later ones also include a cross reference with the burial register entries, which again is useful, as sometimes several generations were commemorated on the same stone although only part of the family were buried in the parish.
        However, although I have been scouring church records and burial registers in my area for many years, I have never come across any records as to who placed the order for a gravestone to be erected. Most of our local churches have a burial plan, showing the location of each grave and who is interred there - that is very useful for identifying the location of unmarked graves, but often only goes back to the mid 1800s Due to the terrain, we only have single graves, although adjacent spaces were often left for widows/widowers - fairly recently the practice of reserving a specified space has been introduced (at a fee) and a stone with a name inscribed on it has to be put in place. This fee is for reservation only and at burial all the customary fees also have to be paid.
        I have spoken to two former church wardens of my parish and they say that during their time of office, the church never kept any record of who ordered or made payments for the erection of gravestones. They were usually approached by one of the monumental mason businesses who then submitted a drawing of the stone and gave details of materials and inscriptions (they were always very familiar with what was/wasn't allowed by the diocese) and once the stone had been approved, the masons were shown the grave location, which they marked, and then carried out the work.
        I think arrangements for interments and the erection of stones in civil cemeteries are different - I'm told you can view records of purchasers of graves, so probably they also keep records of who pays for the erection of stones.
        Perhaps there are different arrangements for different denominations in different parts of the UK

        Jay
        Janet in Yorkshire



        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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          #24
          Hi Janet. I have never seen in any Scottish lair book that I have viewed, any mention of who commissioned/paid for a monumental stone. The detail is solely to do with the burials and the name of the owner of the lair. I have misunderstood your op, sorry.

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            #25
            No problems, GL. You got my genealogy juices going, lol. I thought perhaps you folk from Scotland had access to a genre of info not recorded by the C of E and so unavailable to those of us south of the border!

            Jay
            Janet in Yorkshire



            Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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              #26
              Sadly, Esther could not help.They don’t have their old lair books and she does not know where they are. Her suggestion was DGFHS. They have a wee shop and library in Glasgow Road so I’ll go there later this morning to see if they can shed any light on the matter.

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                #27
                Well, I’ll go to the foot of our stairs! as by beloved Gran used to say. The mighty historian of Dumfries, Mr. William McDowall is incorrect in his writings. On two counts as regards the Agnes Lee stone and possibly three.

                1. There are only 3 sons of George Graham carved on the stone, McDowall says four.
                2. He has not recorded Mary Thompson at the bottom of the stone.
                3. (possibly) he has also missed the strip of stone underneath the main one that has Charles Graham’s name and death year. As this bit is upside down, I think it’s likely that this bit may have come from another stone and when the book was published, it was not in it’s current location. However, I checked the index for the Graham family name and at the time of publication there were only four graves with that surname on them. I have snapped them all in case they turn out to be members of your family that you haven’t yet got.

                As to the whereabouts of the lair books - I am told these should be in the care of the local council. As they are at the wonderfully mis named Cargen Towers LOL, I will call there on my way home as I go right past it.

                Once again, photos of the pages from the book are failing to upload from my phone. Grrr! Will see to that tonight for you.
                Last edited by GallowayLass; 23-08-19, 12:48.

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                  #28
                  No luck at Cargen Towers, the relevant bod is having Bank Holiday off. Will need to wait till mid September now till after my hols as next week is chocka

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                    #29
                    Thanks,
                    I've taken the entry in McDowell's book (page 100) with a pinch of salt after seeing the stone for myself but at least it gave me another on line pointer before I visited Dumfries. Unfortunately that was a quick visit many years ago on our way home from Glasgow and my husband was with me and he has absolutely no interest in family history so I had to be very selective in where I visited.

                    PS Just seen your last post. Hopefully something will turn up later.
                    I can't thank you enough for all your trouble.
                    Last edited by Cath RJ; 23-08-19, 15:00.
                    Cath.

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                      #31
                      While looking for a death notice for Charles Graham, which I did not find, I came across this death of his son Thomas in York.

                      E337DBDE-972B-49DA-8A17-BF0441487690.jpg

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                        #32
                        As to the slab lying on the ground at the other side of the Agnes Lee stone, my former colleagues and I were having a good confab about it yesterday. A second close look reveals that it is not a slab type stone that was meant to lie flat on the ground. There are curved corners at the end furthest from the back of Agnes’ stone. It was once upright and has fallen over or been coming dangerously loose and has been laid down, unfortunately on its face. Look at the size and shape of the stone and compare it with the mark on the back of Agnes’ stone. A perfect fit, we think.
                        The graveyard MI transcriptions list this as lair B2 and Agnes as B3. I have enclosed images of the transcriptions for nos. B2 and 4 so you can check the names to see if either of the two either side of yours are connected to your family is any way.
                        The date of Agnes’ stone will probably remain a mystery but our collective opinion was that most likely it was paid for either by a fundraising (I think you mentioned that in a newspaper) or from the compensation that George’s widow would eventually receive so she would have commissioned it. We all think the bit of upside down stone with Charles’ name and occupation is from a different stone and that McDowall has simply not seen it. It is of a different colour of sandstone and the carving of a different vintage to the large stone above. It could well be all that was salvaged from an older stone on the same plot which most likely contained Agnes, Charles, their infant children and Mary Thomson who was Agnes Lee’s mother.
                        The only fly in the ointment that we can see in the above theory is that is would date the stone to after 1869 when Charles died and also his grandson Charles George aged 19 who is presumably the same one listed on the main stone.

                        CA7F799D-366C-440B-AA1D-D4D13FB2519F.jpg



                        Grrr! 2nd image won’t load.
                        Will hopefully get some luck at Cargen Towers when I eventually get there.
                        Where is George’s wife buried? Are there any clues there? Did she remarry?
                        Last edited by GallowayLass; 24-08-19, 10:24.

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                          #33
                          George's wife, Mary Strong, died aged 61 in 1883 . At the time she was living in Borough Road, Tranmere, Merseyside.
                          Very many family members seem to have moved to the area before then.

                          I already had the info re Thomas Graham who died in York and quite a bit about him too. I even have a passport photo for one of his grandsons who looks just like my Dad!!

                          "The plot thickens."
                          Cath.

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                            #34
                            Sorry, Forgot to say thanks for the book pages but none of the names ring a bell. Most of my Grahams were Charles, George or Thomas with a possible Peter being the father of Charles, baker, who was born in Edinburgh 1792.
                            Cath.

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                              #35
                              Bad news Cath. Got a reply from council chap. They don’t have any lair books for the St. Michael’s kirkyard. None of their holdings go that far back in date.

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                                #36
                                Thanks you so much, Christine, for all your help.
                                Looks like it will have to remain a mystery.
                                Cath.

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