Service Record for The Royal Engineers 1891? finding Richard Kean b Manchester 1860

[Holly]

The Keans in Ontario are descendants of Thomas Kean, born 1858, who was the son of Richard Kean and Frances Butler.

That branch emigrated to Canada.

Holly.

[cbcarolyn]

It does look like the evidence is stacking up then. be interesting to see if the certs give you any more info on Richard.

[Holly]

After a pause in this search, I received today a PDF of the Death Certificate for Mary Ann Kean in 1891. It shows that Richard Kean, born 1860, was indeed a Sapper in the Royal Engineers in 1891. And so he must be the man at Cheriton Barracks on the 1891 Census…

But was he still in the Royal Engineers during WW1?

Holly.

[PhotoFamily]

So...one way to try to figure it out would be to research the records at TNA. You now know where he was definitively at one point in time, so you would probably be able to find him in a record, and determine his service number. Then follow him back and forward in time using that service number, as he was transferred from post to post until discharge.

[Holly]

From records on Family Search I think that Richard Kean’s Service Number was: 254993.

It also says under his name, - ‘Burnt Records’!!!

I’ve never been able to find a Death Entry for him; which is another reason for the name change supposition…

[cbcarolyn]

After a pause in this search, I received today a PDF of the Death Certificate for Mary Ann Kean in 1891. It shows that Richard Kean, born 1860, was indeed a Sapper in the Royal Engineers in 1891. And so he must be the man at Cheriton Barracks on the 1891 Census…

But was he still in the Royal Engineers during WW1?

Holly.

That is good news, looking as though he is your man. I wonder what happened to change name. Could he have been a deserter.

I can't remember how far you got in all of his siblings, no wills, where suddenly they left something for him under new name?

[Holly]

I’m still unsure, but have had new DNA matches who link back to Richard Kean, senior and Frances Butler and so it’s looking more likely to be the same man.

All of the siblings remained Kean’s, - it’s very perplexing!

Holly.

[Holly]

So...one way to try to figure it out would be to research the records at TNA. You now know where he was definitively at one point in time, so you would probably be able to find him in a record, and determine his service number. Then follow him back and forward in time using that service number, as he was transferred from post to post until discharge.

This could be him?

[PhotoFamily]

A recap of the 14 pages might be useful?

I haven't seen a page like the one in post #268 before, but I don't even really qualify as an amateur, so you could see if annswabey or AntonyM could provide any light.

I had Ann search the muster rolls for my man. We knew where he was on two specific points in time (births of first two children). As mentioned early in this thread, REs don't stay in a regiment, they are plug-and-play type units. So it required the search of many muster roll records to track him, which his service number allowed. My man also entered and exited the REs at an earlier time than yours, so I don't know what happened with records.

[Holly]

I wasn't sure whether to start a new thread with the Death Certificate PDF?

But there's so much previous help and research that I'm unsure how to encapsulate it?

Shall I just start anew?

Holly

[cbcarolyn]

I think we need a recap of where you are at, you did a post sometime ago that summarised your thoughts of where your grandfather started, and DNA. matches to Richard Kean leading you to believe he is the same man as your grandfather.

you can get images from GRO now see this thread £2.50:
https://www.familytreeforum.com/foru...-now-available. deaths only up to 1887 though

It could be useful to get the children's (Richard & Mary's) certs. Agnes death never found, Catherine presumed to have died in Burnley but not confirmed.

anything that could be useful on 1921 census now that is available since the start of this thread?

Not sure what evidence you have now.

[cbcarolyn]

here are a few posts that summarise some of the questions/findings from within this thread.

To summarise...

William James Wilson says he was Born in Manchester in 1860.

Richard Kean was Born in Manchester in 1860/'63.

William James Wilson cannot be found anywhere before he Married Margaret Rees in Swansea in 1893.

Richard Kean is in Manchester, employed as a 'House Painter' on the 1881 Census.

Richard Kean is on the 1891 Census for Kent, as a Sapper in The Royal Engineers.

Richard Kean is nowhere to be found after that.

William James Wilson pops up as a House Painter in Swansea in 1893.

There is another William James Wilson, (Born 1865, Kent) on the 1891 Census for Swansea.

That William James Wilson Married Mary Shill and they have a child called 'William Havelock Wilson'. That child Dies in Infancy.

William James Wilson and Margaret Rees, (my Grandparents) Marry, and have a child called 'William Havelock Wilson (1894 - 1974).

My thought is that Richard Kean went AWOL, (or deserted) from the Royal Engineers. He knew the 'other' William James Wilson from Kent, and also went to Swansea...

Finally, - I have never been able to find my Grandfather before his Marriage, BUT, - I have DNA Matches to Richard Kean's wider family!!

Holly.

for those that have ancestry here are the links to the census that I have found - I think they are right, thought it might help
Richard Kean the elder
1841

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/LANHO107_582_583-0257/6254566?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398086/facts

1861

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/LANRG9_2896_2897-0380/14245755?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398086/facts

1871

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/LANRG10_3999_4000-0151/5104643?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398086/facts

1881

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LANRG11_3883_3887-0827/10197676?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398086/facts

1891

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LANRG12_3197_3199-0502/22027442?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115398086/facts/citation/742162491279/edit/record

richard the younger
1881

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LANRG11_3931_3934-0039/10425068?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115397343/facts

1891

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/KENRG12_751_753-0171/25620520?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222115397343/facts

1901
William wilson

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7815/GLARG13_5073_5074-0351/32513857?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222114851492/facts

1911

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2353/rg14_32759_0019_06/2300385?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/161314848/person/222114851492/facts

There does seem to be a Richard Kean in Salford and did notice one of his children was born in Hulme - he does seem to be the wrong age too

Looking from a different angle and possible reason for a name change.

1880 A Mary Ann Young m Richard Kean
1882 Mary Agnes Kean b Chorlton reg mmn Young
1884 Joseph b Chorlton reg mmn Young d 1884
1885 Catherine b Chorlton reg mmn Young
1891 Mary Ann Kean d aged 29 b 1862
1891 09/01/1891 admission to Manchester Workhouse, R/C Mary ?Ann and Catherine, R/C, Chorlton, Grandfather informant (no name given)
1891 census Mary A and Catherine (ages transposed) at Holly Mount Poor Law School, Tottington Lower End, Bury.

Will try to find a record to link them to Richard Kean

Vera

[Holly]

Thanks Carolyn,

For your thoughts. All that I’m now trying to establish is whether Richard Kean, born Manchester in 1860, was still in the Royal Engineers after 1893. If he was, then he can’t be my Grandfather William James Wilson, because he married my Grandmother Margaret Rees in Swansea in 1893.

I can account for my Grandfather’s life after 1893, he’s just nowhere to be found before then.

I have my Grandfather and family in Swansea on the 1921 Census. I was unable to find a Richard Kean born in Manchester in 1860 on the 1921 Census.

I have the RC Baptisms for Richard and Mary Kean’s children. I have all of the BMD Certificates for William James and Margaret Wilson’s children.

I have previously written to the Archivist for the Royal Engineers and have established that they don’t have any Service Records for men who served less than 20 years.

1891 - 1893 is the critical period that I need to focus on.

Any thoughts welcomed.

Holly.

[cbcarolyn]

It sounds as though there are no military records in existence to be found?

reg of electors, newspaper reports etc are forever expanding

As death certs cheap you could get the Josephs in case it did have something of interest.

You can also focus on the rest of the family after 1893 and see if there is ever any reference to Richard Kean or his possible new name, the family could have been aware of his new identity, and did keep in contact, depends why he changed.

Catherines death cert again could be a failure in giving any info.

Agnes could have married as we can't find a death.


Can you just remind me the records you have on Richard in the few years leading up to 1893/last known whereabouts.

[Holly]

I have the Marriage of Richard’s Parents, Richard Kean and Frances Butler in Hulme in October 1855.

The various Census Entries for the family; which are already detailed on here.

In September 1880 Richard Kean marries Mary Ann Young at St Wilfred’s RC Church in Hulme.
On the 1881 Census Richard Kean is a Housepainter and Mary Ann is mistranscribed as Margaret Kean. They have 3 children.

In 1886 Richard Kean signs up for the Manchester Regiment. Records on Ancestry, already on here.

Mary Ann Kean’s Death Certificate in January 1891 shows that Richard Kean is a Sapper in the Royal Engineers. On the 1891 Census he’s at Cheriton Barracks in Kent, a Sapper in the Royal Engineers.

In June 1893 my Grandfather William James Wilson, Occupation Housepainter, married my Grandmother Margaret Rees in Swansea.

There’s a Richard Kean in the Royal Engineers on the Medal Rolls for WW1. No age given.
If this is the same man, then he can’t be my Grandfather.

This is what I’m trying to establish.

Holly.

[cbcarolyn]

found this summary I had written - now changed it slightly

Looking back over the thread this is where it kind of ended with regard to Richard Kean b 1860 and also being the same person as William James Wilson due to DNA matches

Mary Agnes was never traced (Richard Keans Daughter) - could have married and father could be at/mentioned on cert
Death cert of wife Mary - now available and confirms her address as Hulme and husband sapper Richard Kean
Catherine was traced and died childless, her marriage in USA said Richard as father in 1911, but she may not have a clue where or who he was. She probably died in the UK, possible death record found no cert.
DNA matches to the descendants of Lucy Kean, Richard Kean and Patrick Butler and Jane Howard. Thomas and John Kean, (brothers of Richard Kean).
Richard Kean had many siblings so each could be looked at - I know many were. wills/marriages/godparent etc after 1893
Richard Kean is possibly the one in Kent in 1891
The first sighting of the new name of William James Wilson is marriage to Margaret Rees in Swansea in 1893.
Joseph (son) death cert could provide something.

[cbcarolyn]

there could even be a funeral notice in one of the papers of one of the siblings and a mention of family members attending etc.

and of course any sightings of William James Wilson bef 1893, as he must have met wife a bit before, if same man he would have moved from Kent in 1891, to Wales in those 2 years assuming they met in Wales.

[Holly]

The most likely thing to me is that he deserted from the Royal Engineers after the 1891 Census and moved to Swansea for anonymity and a fresh start?

Holly.

[PhotoFamily]

Have you looked for a will of the man you think is his father? I've had a father's will identify the (changed) name and location of a missing child.

[Holly]

Yes PhotoFamily,

I’ve looked but haven’t found one.

I’ve just checked again for Richard Kean:

Birth 1833•Manchester, Lancashire, England
Death
Jan 28 1894•Chorlton, Workhouse End, Lancashire, England.

Nothing listed, sadly.
Holly.